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another 6 5 hand.. your bid

#1 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 09:36



East bidding
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 09:50

1
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#3 User is offline   cencio 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 11:07

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-January-24, 09:50, said:

1

We open heart but we go down in a nt slam. Maybe opening in club is easier to find a club slam.
But open in a sixth minor if strong and in a fifth major if weak, is it always the general rule ?
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#4 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 13:49

View Postcencio, on 2021-January-24, 09:36, said:



East bidding

I'd be tempted to open 1 because it's quicker to describe the distribution but I've been castigated in the past for doing this.

Even I think it's impossible to find 6 with Standard American bidding and I live for minors that make when NT doesn't.

You can show either distribution or strength before getting past 3NT. You can't show both.

I'd like to give these hands to a certain pair of Precision players with a lackadaisical attitude toward Alerts.
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#5 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 14:48

The east hand presents a fairly common conundrum for 5-6 hands.

While I like the Aces, and the heart honours, this isn’t quite what I need for 1C then 2H over 1S or 1N. However, partner doesn’t always make the most difficult bid for us, and sometimes the opps help us out (inadvertently).

Were I 1=5=6=1, this would be even tougher but on this hand, and doing my best to ignore what responder holds, I open 1C.

Over 1S I would rebid 2C. Over 1N, I think I’d bid 2H since partner is known to hold at least 3 clubs, so my hand grows up.

Obviously I may well miss hearts if partner responds 1S. C’est la vie.

Thus being the novice and beginner forum, I’ll mention, but not assume it’s available, that many advanced/expert pairs have a bid for responderif he is weak but with 5+S and 4+ hearts (usually a 2H response) to cater to opener having an unbalanced hand with (usually) 4 hearts too weak to reverse.

Here, I expect the auction to proceed something like:

1C 1D
1H 1S *
2H. 3C


* whether 1S or a jump to 2S is your fourth suit forcing (assuming you play that) is for partnership discussion. However, 1S is definitely forcing. I much prefer 1S to be ambiguous as to length but as establishing a game force. However, this works only in the context of a Walsh type of approach, in which a response of 1D denies a 4+ major unless diamonds are longer than the major AND responder has gf values. If you bid up the line or don’t play Walsh, you’ll probably want 1S to be a one round force, with spades, and use the jump to 2S over 1H to deny spades but create a gf.

Then opener shows his 5=6 shape and responder should realize that his clubs are huge with clubs as trump. Picture x AKxxx x AJ10xxx and 7 C is nearly laydown.

I would expect a competent pair to reach 6C after this start.

Btw, I saw a comment to the effect of reaching 6N. It is a common but usually poor move to run to notrump on apparent misfits. Misfits generally play poorly because the lack of a fit and the presence of shortness in both hands means that communications can get fouled up very easily. Here, once opener shows 6+ clubs, responder has to focus on clubs, not notrump.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 15:37

Mike, I'm about to play some precision club for the first time in years, there you have to start with 1, any clues how to bid this ?
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#7 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 15:49

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-24, 15:37, said:

Mike, I'm about to play some precision club for the first time in years, there you have to start with 1, any clues how to bid this ?

A lot of Precision varieties allow you to open 2C. If partner enquires with 2D you can jump to 3H with this hand.

Failing that, opening 1H and jumping to 3C shows a maximum 5/5 hand (i.e. a good 14-15). This is not good enough, so you have to treat it as a 5/5 and bid clubs a couple of times. If you don't open 2C it's really hard to show the sixth card in the suit.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 16:00

View Postsfi, on 2021-January-24, 15:49, said:

A lot of Precision varieties allow you to open 2C. If partner enquires with 2D you can jump to 3H with this hand.

Failing that, opening 1H and jumping to 3C shows a maximum 5/5 hand (i.e. a good 14-15). This is not good enough, so you have to treat it as a 5/5 and bid clubs a couple of times. If you don't open 2C it's really hard to show the sixth card in the suit.


Would much prefer to have the honours the other way round in the 2 suits for 2 then 3. I wasn't sure how many points you could shave off the 3 rebid for the 6th card, I'd be more inlined to do that. 1-2-3 is not a jump, and is what I probably do. On a good day partner sticks a 5N pick a slam in at some point.
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#9 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 16:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-24, 16:00, said:

Would much prefer to have the honours the other way round in the 2 suits for 2 then 3. I wasn't sure how many points you could shave off the 3 rebid for the 6th card, I'd be more inlined to do that. 1-2-3 is not a jump, and is what I probably do. On a good day partner sticks a 5N pick a slam in at some point.

If partner actually bids 2D, as in this hand, then I've always played 3C as showing 5C. Partner will be aware you might have chosen this option with 5/6, and might be able to cater for it with something like the pick a slam option you mention. I can see an auction like:

1H - 2D
3C - 3D
3S (waiting) - 4C

and now you should wind up in 6C one way or another.

Most Precision variants are similar to 2/1 or Standard American (your choice when you design the system) if you open 1M. So the only real problem it solves in hands like this is giving you the option to aggressively jump to show shape rather than some genuine game-forcing hand when partner makes a simple response. It constrains your club hands, so here you immediately get to show club length with a 2C opener if you choose, but you're a level higher.

If I picked up this hand at the table, I would open 2C if I had a good way to show the 5/6, but otherwise start with 1H. I don't think my general values or my club suit is good enough for a plan to rebid 3C, but wouldn't argue if partner chose that. The heart suit is good, we have aces and the club spots could be useful. It could go wrong if partner has something like Qx in clubs and overvalues that though.
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#10 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-January-24, 20:11

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-24, 15:37, said:

Mike, I'm about to play some precision club for the first time in years, there you have to start with 1, any clues how to bid this ?

I havenít played strong club in almost 30 years, so canít really help you.

If I had to offer something, Iíd likely open 1H and then jump to 3C over 1N, or bid 2C over 1S. I donít like the idea of opening 2C and, should partner bid 2D, jumping to 3H. Yes, I assume we show our shape well, but weíve preempted our own constructive auction to an awkward level. How, for example, can responder set hearts as trump while maintaining a force? I suppose one could play that 3S and/or 4D agrees hearts, but Iíd be nervous doing that at the table if we havenít discussed it.
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#11 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-January-25, 04:36

1. 6/5 but suit tunn (thin?) so I look at hand as 5/5. if opps. have you will be outbid, so 1 - 2-3 shows this hand if partner has high points.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-January-26, 22:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-January-24, 15:37, said:

Mike, I'm about to play some precision club for the first time in years, there you have to start with 1, any clues how to bid this ?

Something like this perhaps?

1 = 5+ unbal, limited
... - 1 = INV+ relay
1NT = min 0-3 spades
... - 2 = GF relay
2 = 4+ clubs
... - 2 = relay
2 = 5+ clubs
... - 2NT = relay
3 = 5 hearts, 6+ clubs
... - 4 = relay
4 = 4 controls
... - 4NT = relay
5 = controls in +, no control
... - 6
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-January-27, 04:57

View PostZelandakh, on 2021-January-26, 22:32, said:

Something like this perhaps?

1 = 5+ unbal, limited
... - 1 = INV+ relay
1NT = min 0-3 spades
... - 2 = GF relay
2 = 4+ clubs
... - 2 = relay
2 = 5+ clubs
... - 2NT = relay
3 = 5 hearts, 6+ clubs
... - 4 = relay
4 = 4 controls
... - 4NT = relay
5 = controls in +, no control
... - 6


A less than once a year precision partnership rarely plays relays, we play very simple real diamond precision with precious few agreements other than Reese 1973 as default and the necessary modifications to make 1 4+, ie a 12-15 1N which we open when 4414 so that 2 guarantees 5 clubs.
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-January-27, 14:54

Cencio's bidding problem
+++++++++++++++++++
I might open 1 with say
J Axxxx x AQJxxx
but here, for me,
- s are playable opposite a doubleton and
- s are too poor.
Once, you've opened the bidding, it's hard for partner to stop short of slam :(

On a minor suit lead, you make 6N:
- Cash West's minor tops and
- Exit in s :)

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