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5341. nz teams

#21 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 22:12

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 21:41, said:

How does North go on after 3? or do you mean South?

My error - I mean south, the weaker hand. IMO the south hand was not evaluated properly in light of the bidding or is used to playing with a notorious over bidder who frequently shades jump shift strength. That said I favor playing a strong club because of these difficulties in a more standard system
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#22 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 23:14

View Postakwoo, on 2021-May-05, 19:45, said:

Lacking good gadgets, I think 5H is better than 4H after 1S-1N-3D-3H.

ETA: How many of the other pairs were playing strong club? I think just about any system after a positive response to a strong club finds the slam trivially.


Responder may have 5 small hearts and no fit for spades or diamonds. I wouldn't want to bypass 4 unless partner can cooperate with a slam try.
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#23 User is online   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-May-05, 23:34

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-05, 21:35, said:

Our opponents, who found the slam were playing strong club. I don't know about the other teams but I would imagine some/many would be playing it, I'm not sure if it would be 8/12 teams though.

5 tells partner, I have this sort of hand and does it ask partner to cue if more than a minimum?


I think 5H says "We have reasonable play at slam if you have the right minimum, I can't find out that information using any of the slam seeking gadgets we play, and what looks like the right minimum from the prior bidding and the fact that I'm not using any other convention is in fact the right minimum."

It's a bit of an overbid here because partner might bid 6H on just both red kings, but even that slam is still somewhere close to 50% (and, if you're outclassed in a short team match and this is in fact a 40% slam, it's probably your best chance to steal the match with a bit of luck).

Partner shouldn't bother cue-bidding unless they can visualize a hand you could have where you didn't open 2C but 7H makes, so their usual choices are pass and 6H.
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#24 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 02:05

If you consider the Modified Loosing Trick Count (MLT) North will have a minimum of 4.5 opening 2; in this case North has less than 4.

Once South has bid 3 and had support from North it becomes clear from South's MLT of 8.5 that a slam is on. i.e. 19-4-8.5 = 6.5 level. Slam exploration is then de rigour for South

Going via 1 would also work for me
1-1NT
2NT (Str+, 4+/balanced with doubleton)-3 (Avg+ Shape?)
3 (5341)-4 (5+)
MLT calculation 19-3.75-9.5=5.75 level. With 3 keycards and controls in all suits the 5 level should be safe so I start a slam exploration sequence
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#25 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 02:35

View Postmycroft, on 2021-May-05, 17:22, said:


I'm liking Yeti's "4 showing a better than minimum 4 raise" more and more; almost certain my partners wouldn't get it (they'd treat it as a heart raise, but a cue. Maybe that's all I need, if I get 4 in response.


Well it is a cue of sorts given that you've shown 12 cards in the other suits, the question is whether it's categorically a void or just a better hand with a singleton
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#26 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 02:52

Were any of the other teams playing some Acol based system? If so, I could see the auction going 1 - 2, 4 - 4 then RCKB to check on the heart honors followed by 6.
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#27 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 03:23

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-06, 02:52, said:

Were any of the other teams playing some Acol based system? If so, I could see the auction going 1 - 2, 4 - 4 then RCKB to check on the heart honors followed by 6.


My first thought was that not playing 2/1 makes this pretty trivial , we wouldn't have that auction but would get there easily enough.
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#28 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 04:42


nullve(N)-nullve(S):

1(1)-1N(2)
3(3)-3(4)
3(5)-4(6)
4(7)-4(8)
5(9)-6(10)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ S, unBAL"
(2) "5-12, NF"
(3) "19-21, (3)4+ D"
(4) relay
(5) 19-21, 5341
(6) puppet to 4
(7) forced
(8) Parity Key Card Blackwood in H
(9) odd # of key cards, no trump Q
(10) contract

Edit: Or if mikeh (below) is right that the North hand is really too strong for 1:

Spoiler

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#29 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 05:43

Itís unusual for me to advocate opening 2C when many are suggesting 1S...I am a conservative 2C bidder, and have opened more than a few 21 counts at the one level. However, this is an easy 2C opening for me.we have a very good hand. We have zero wastage in our short suit, a LTC of 4...and thatís being pessimistic in the heart suit, and no short term rebid problem over any response from partner.

Meanwhile, I respectively suggest that there is NO way partner can play us for this hand after, say, 1S 1N 3D 3H 4H

Why canít we hold AQJxx Axx AQJx x? How else are we bidding this hand? Now slam requires a spade finesse and a 3-2 heart break. Plus AQJxx Ax AQJx Qx might feel endplayed in the auction over 3H.

Once opener bids 2C, even the poor methods in use should find south making a try. A suit oriented 2C opening usually has at most a LTC of 5 and 4 is common. South has a LTC of 7, so the total is likely at most 12, yielding an expectation of 12 winners (subtract the estimated LTC from 24 to provide an estimate of tricks)

LTC is hardly infallible but it can be a guide when considering what seems to be a close decision.

In the given auction, I think south should cue 5D over 4H, and north has an easy 6H call.

Back to the main problem: the inability to show a simple positive in hearts.

Iím a big fan of 2H negative, with 2D promising an ace or king, or better. Iím also a big fan of bidding 2D on many hands even with a Ďsuit positiveí response.....but only when responder has a complex hand...say a genuine two or three suiter or a hand that intends to drive to slam.

My 2C structure has recently changed to a weird scheme in one partnership, but in my other we play that a 2N response shows a major suit positive, in a simple hand.

So we would bid 2C 2N 3C (asking responder to transfer to his major) 3D 3H

There we are, finding hearts at the 3-level, with responder narrowly defined. Responder has an easy 4D cue and opener bids the virtually guaranteed to be cold 6H

Opener could also simply bid 3H over 2N, since he knows responder holds hearts.

If you want something simpler, I used to play, for many years, that 2N was a heart positive. Again, this makes slam trivial.

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.
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#30 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 11:20

I think 4C must be big raise of H noww responder can show KD and then its easy key card.
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#31 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 14:41

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-06, 05:43, said:

Itís unusual for me to advocate opening 2C when many are suggesting 1S...I am a conservative 2C bidder, and have opened more than a few 21 counts at the one level. However, this is an easy 2C opening for me.we have a very good hand. We have zero wastage in our short suit, a LTC of 4...and thatís being pessimistic in the heart suit, and no short term rebid problem over any response from partner.

Meanwhile, I respectively suggest that there is NO way partner can play us for this hand after, say, 1S 1N 3D 3H 4H

Why canít we hold AQJxx Axx AQJx x? How else are we bidding this hand? Now slam requires a spade finesse and a 3-2 heart break. Plus AQJxx Ax AQJx Qx might feel endplayed in the auction over 3H.

Once opener bids 2C, even the poor methods in use should find south making a try. A suit oriented 2C opening usually has at most a LTC of 5 and 4 is common. South has a LTC of 7, so the total is likely at most 12, yielding an expectation of 12 winners (subtract the estimated LTC from 24 to provide an estimate of tricks)

LTC is hardly infallible but it can be a guide when considering what seems to be a close decision.

In the given auction, I think south should cue 5D over 4H, and north has an easy 6H call.

Back to the main problem: the inability to show a simple positive in hearts.

Iím a big fan of 2H negative, with 2D promising an ace or king, or better. Iím also a big fan of bidding 2D on many hands even with a Ďsuit positiveí response.....but only when responder has a complex hand...say a genuine two or three suiter or a hand that intends to drive to slam.

My 2C structure has recently changed to a weird scheme in one partnership, but in my other we play that a 2N response shows a major suit positive, in a simple hand.

So we would bid 2C 2N 3C (asking responder to transfer to his major) 3D 3H

There we are, finding hearts at the 3-level, with responder narrowly defined. Responder has an easy 4D cue and opener bids the virtually guaranteed to be cold 6H

Opener could also simply bid 3H over 2N, since he knows responder holds hearts.

If you want something simpler, I used to play, for many years, that 2N was a heart positive. Again, this makes slam trivial.

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.

Mike,
If you hold the minimum jump shift you described, you play 5 hearts. not slam. Personally, I think the best advance over 4h is 5d, after which opener with no further to show bids 5h.
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#32 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 15:00

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-06, 05:43, said:

Whatever you do, do not play 2C 3H as a heart positive, without very clear definition. It is ruinous in terms of preemptions your own strong auction. Traditionally it can be used to show a &6 card suit capabale of playing for one loser opposite a stiff, and should deny any side Ace or King.

Our 3 response would show a solid, 6+ card suit, values in the suit. It "never" comes up and I obviously wouldn't bid it with this hand.

I like your 2N Major response, what does a positive Major response look like for you?
What is 2/2 ?
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#33 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 16:14

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-06, 15:00, said:

Our 3 response would show a solid, 6+ card suit, values in the suit. It "never" comes up and I obviously wouldn't bid it with this hand.

I like your 2N Major response, what does a positive Major response look like for you?
What is 2/2 ?

In one partnership, it is a balanced 8-11. Seems odd, but itís a good range

If opener rebids 2N, and responder has a max, slam is highly probable, with at least 22 opposite 10-11. If responder has a minimum, then slam requires extras by opener or a good mesh. Thereís no need for transfers over 2N (responder denies a 5 card major), so 3C is stayman, one can use 3D as a 5 card minor (3H asks), and 3H/3S as 2=3=4=4/3=2=4=4, and 3N as 3334/3343.

In the other partnership, weíve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and weíve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasnít come up.

The 2S gadget came up last night.
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#34 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 20:02

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-06, 16:14, said:

In one partnership, it is a balanced 8-11. Seems odd, but itís a good range

If opener rebids 2N, and responder has a max, slam is highly probable, with at least 22 opposite 10-11. If responder has a minimum, then slam requires extras by opener or a good mesh. Thereís no need for transfers over 2N (responder denies a 5 card major), so 3C is stayman, one can use 3D as a 5 card minor (3H asks), and 3H/3S as 2=3=4=4/3=2=4=4, and 3N as 3334/3343.

In the other partnership, weíve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and weíve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasnít come up.

The 2S gadget came up last night.


Thanks. I think you missed another question hidden in there, what does a positive Major response (to 2) look like for you?
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#35 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 21:23

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-06, 20:02, said:

Thanks. I think you missed another question hidden in there, what does a positive Major response (to 2) look like for you?

2 of top 3, 5+ suit, no side 5 card suit, no decent side 4 card suit, no more than one Ace or King on the side.
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#36 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-07, 04:06

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-06, 05:43, said:

I am a conservative 2C bidder

[...]

I’m a big fan of 2H negative

I'm a conservative 2 bidder (when playing standard 2/1), too. That has the effect that almost all unbalanced hands will, for any given shape, fall within a 4-point range (e.g. 22-25 hcp). The frequency table for 5341 hands, for instance, might look something like this

Frequency :
   22	      48
   23	      28
   24	      17
   25	       4
   26	       2
   27	       0
   28	       1
   29	       0
   30	       0
   31	       0
   32	       0
   33	       0
Generated 4950969 hands
Produced 100 hands
Initial random seed 1620377251
Time needed    4.347 sec

, where I've used the Dealer script

condition hcp(north)>=22 and shape(north, 5341)
produce 100
action frequency(hcp(north),22,33)

This means that if the bidding goes e.g.

2-2(waiting); 2,

then 2 has for all practical purposes even a (much) narrower range than even the "limited" openings in Precision.

So basically Responder knows Opener's high-card strength (if unbalanced) and only needs to know about Opener's shape in order to judge whether to move towards slam or not. How, then, can the negative 2 response be useful? Well, iirc you like to be able to get out in 3 (maybe even 3) after 2-2(negative) when Opener has 5+S4+H, but other than that?
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#37 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-10, 06:35

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-06, 16:14, said:

In the other partnership, we’ve switched to transfers, with 2S showing a club suit that will lay for one loser opposite a stiff, no side Ace or King, 3C is diamonds, etc. Gets the contract right-sided. Just adopted it and we’ve only played 16 boards with the method so, unsurprisingly, it hasn’t come up.


I have long been thinking of playing transfers here too. Say that a simple major positive is shown at 2-level (either flip-flop or through 2N as you discussed), then do you use 3/3 as transfers to longer/complex major hands? If so, how are these hands defined?
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#38 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-10, 20:26

View Postpescetom, on 2021-May-10, 06:35, said:

I have long been thinking of playing transfers here too. Say that a simple major positive is shown at 2-level (either flip-flop or through 2N as you discussed), then do you use 3/3 as transfers to longer/complex major hands? If so, how are these hands defined?

Complex hands are either multi-suited (2 or 3) or have values outside that main suit sufficient to make slam at least probable. Our thinking is that positive responses tend to consume bidding space, making it difficult to explore multiple options if opener has to start describing his hand at the 3-level. Yes, that can happen anyway, if opener has a minor, but we tend not to open 2C with a minor suit hand unless it’s very strong. While 1m is not forcing, we don’t pass it very often.

So 3D by responder is a simple hand with a good heart suit, and at most one useful card outside.
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#39 User is online   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-May-10, 20:40

View Postnullve, on 2021-May-07, 04:06, said:


So basically Responder knows Opener's high-card strength (if unbalanced) and only needs to know about Opener's shape in order to judge whether to move towards slam or not. H


Raw HCP is frankly a meaningless measure on these types of auctions. A king can easily be worth well more than all 4 jacks.
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#40 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2021-May-11, 12:14

For me after 3!H having opened 2C it must be a 4C cue bid and slam is easy. I would open 1S and see little difficulty in finding 6H.
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