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What do you bid?

Poll: What do you bid? (12 member(s) have cast votes)

Your bid

  1. 3H (4 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. 3S (Michaels) (1 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  3. double (4 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  4. 4D (leaping Michaels) (2 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  5. something else (1 votes [8.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

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#1 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 11:52

This hand came up with a friend (not playing with me) which induced a bit of discussion.



Matchpoints. What do you do here?
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#2 User is online   eagles123 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 13:00

I would pass.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 13:10

A vicious hand. Fortunately partner is a passed hand which slightly reduces the risk of an awful score defending 2S.

Also, I’m happy it’s mps, since a disaster is only one board, plus the field will usually have some other pairs committing the same action as us. Imps would make this even worse.

With all that hedging out of the way, I bid an in tempo 3H.

If I get doubled, I’ll have to assess whether to run to diamonds. Live bridge, especially against non-expert opps, would make it an easier decision, even though I may be exchanging one frying pan for another, even hotter, one.

Michael’s is committing to the 4 level when I’m uncomfortable at the 3-level, and one should not play both 3S and 4m as Michaels. Use 3S to ask for a stopper, if leaping michael’s is available

Double is insane. LHO raises spades and partner bids clubs. Ugh. And it’s no better if LHO passes. What are we doing over a lebensohl 2N or any club bid?
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 13:54

every bid gives problems. I am surprised 2nt is not included here. not a great hand to bid it, but it does keep bidding low and tells partner your hand, about 16-19 high card points and stopper in opponents suit. if you get doubled then you have two suits to run to.
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#5 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 14:28

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-May-14, 13:54, said:

every bid gives problems. I am surprised 2nt is not included here. not a great hand to bid it, but it does keep bidding low and tells partner your hand, about 16-19 high card points and stopper in opponents suit. if you get doubled then you have two suits to run to.


2NT didn't occur to me with ten cards in two suits, but the "something else" option was added to account for calls I hadn't thought of.
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#6 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 14:34

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 13:10, said:

A vicious hand. Fortunately partner is a passed hand which slightly reduces the risk of an awful score defending 2S.

Also, Iím happy itís mps, since a disaster is only one board, plus the field will usually have some other pairs committing the same action as us. Imps would make this even worse.

With all that hedging out of the way, I bid an in tempo 3H.

If I get doubled, Iíll have to assess whether to run to diamonds. Live bridge, especially against non-expert opps, would make it an easier decision, even though I may be exchanging one frying pan for another, even hotter, one.

Michaelís is committing to the 4 level when Iím uncomfortable at the 3-level, and one should not play both 3S and 4m as Michaels. Use 3S to ask for a stopper, if leaping michaelís is available

Double is insane. LHO raises spades and partner bids clubs. Ugh. And itís no better if LHO passes. What are we doing over a lebensohl 2N or any club bid?






Wouldn't this show a two suiter strong enough to want to bid, but either suit is too weak to bid directly? Otherwise, how do you ever get into the auction over a weak two with a moderate to strong opening hand a major and 5422 or 5431 with a minor suit singleton, where a few scattered values and a fit opposite gives a fair chance for game?
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 15:08

View PostAL78, on 2021-May-14, 14:28, said:

2NT didn't occur to me with ten cards in two suits, but the "something else" option was added to account for calls I hadn't thought of.

It shouldnít occur to you....and if it does, disabuse yourself of that thought as quickly and completely as you can. Note that with KQ tight, you have zero ability to hold up in spades, not that one should ever be thinking notrump anyway.

As for your other post, suggesting that one can double and correct partnerís hypothetical club bids to diamonds, to show two suits not strong enough to bid directly, youíre letting your knowledge of the hand colour your thinking about the auction. Thatís a very common mistake. The way around it is to imagine you are in partnerís position, and that you have no knowledge of the actual hand. What does double then 4D sound like? The only reason you even consider it being this hand is because youíve seen the hand, and you want it to be.

Itís actually pretty simple. After a weak two on your right, double and then bidding oneís suit prototypically shoes a good hand (a nice 16+) with a 6 card suit and tolerance/support for the other suits. It does NOT show a two suiter with poor texture.

So if I doubled 2S then bid 4D after (3S) 4C (p), Iíd hold something resembling x AJx AKJ10xx KJx

Now, if I played a gadget known as ELC, which I donít and would never agree to play, doubling then diamonds could show 4-5 or 4-6 in the reds. But even ELC proponents do not, in all of the discussion Iíve seen about the device, use it to show equal red suits.
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#8 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 17:32

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 13:10, said:

What are we doing over a lebensohl 2N or any club bid?

3?
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 17:59

View Postnullve, on 2021-May-14, 17:32, said:

3?

Well, obviously, but that wonít show anything resembling this hand. Iím old-fashioned, I guess. When I show a powerful, flexible one-suiter, as by doubling and bidding my suit, I like to hold a powerful, flexible one-suiter.

I find that my partnerships bid better when my hand accords with my bidding.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#10 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-14, 18:33

My first inclination is to excuse myself to the toilet and not return but better yet Iíd pass and claim a momentary brain fog if it works out poorly .
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 05:14

View Postmikeh, on 2021-May-14, 15:08, said:

As for your other post, suggesting that one can double and correct partnerís hypothetical club bids to diamonds, to show two suits not strong enough to bid directly, youíre letting your knowledge of the hand colour your thinking about the auction.


Not really. I had a flashback to my student days when I showed a hand to a friend and he said "if partner is going to double on this hand he has to be prepared to bid 4 to show a two suiter IMO". The hand in question was opening hand strength, 5422 shape, 5, 4, and sitting over a weak 2 opening. This hand looked very similar although it is 5-5, not 5-4. This is why I asked the question. If I'm way off, it is good to be corrected, and I'm happy to accept your explanation of what double followed by a suit over a weak two should show.
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 05:29

AL78 'This hand came up with a friend (not playing with me) which induced a bit of discussion. Matchpoints. What do you do here?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Deal rotated to make partner dealer. I rank
1. 3 = NAT. Brave but sensible.
2. 3 = ART 5+ 5+ m (MICHAELS) but drawbacks are poor suit quality and honour concentration.
3. Double = T/O (but not if playing LEBENSOHL).
4. Pass = And apologise if that results in a a poor score.

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#13 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 06:22

X, followed by 3 (GF, 5+ H) over (2)-X-2N

The 3 rebid is an overbid, of course, but not more of an overbid than Michaels (3) or Leaping Michaels (4), and it has the advantage of keeping 3N in picture.

My nige1an ranking:

1. X
2. 2N
3. 3(Michaels)/4(Leaping Michaels)
4. 4 (sick)
5. 3
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 07:25

View Postnige1, on 2021-May-15, 05:29, said:

AL78 'This hand came up with a friend (not playing with me) which induced a bit of discussion. Matchpoints. What do you do here?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Deal rotated to make partner dealer. I rank
1. 3 = NAT. Brave but sensible.
2. 3 = ART 5+ 5+ m (MICHAELS) but drawbacks are poor suit quality and honour concentration.
3. Double = T/O (but not if playing LEBENSOHL).
4. Pass = And apologise if that results in a a poor score.



Isn't 3 bid 3N with a spade stop for most people ?
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#15 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-May-15, 09:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-May-15, 07:25, said:

Isn't 3 bid 3N with a spade stop for most people ?

I play long minor almost solid + outside values, looking for S stopper, or minor 2 suited ok for 3NT if partner stops S.
My H/m 2-suiters are at 4m, but with 2 suits headed by A9, it is obviously a joke to consider such a weapon.
So 3H is the only remaining call, showing an opening hand with 6 cards or a bit more strength if only 5, usually not that bad but we canít always have a textbook hand. 3D is pointless, and passing is too coward, if things turn bad and we go for 8 or 11 hundereds, well, it is only one board at MPs.
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