BBO Discussion Forums: After opener's jump shift - BBO Discussion Forums

 helene_t, on 2016-September-08, 02:52, said:

It is very uncertain what a 3 H bid by East will be taken as by West.In all probability,most wrests will take it as showing a 5 card Spade suit.He will ask himself.' Why this 3 H bid?" And one cannot blame him for bidding 3S with Axx. Of course East will correct to 3NT ,if he so wishes ,but that is another point for discussion.

 msjennifer, on 2016-September-09, 12:39, said:

OK

But the 25% was only referring to your comment I quoted -- I dont think you can disagree with that, if you look again above...
It did not infer your have ~75% of making 3NT -- again -- look again

3NT by East is actually a bit lower than 50%, since with best defence you will sometimes go down even if the diam finesse is on.
With ♦Qxxx in South you only have 8 easy tricks, if they do not play hearts (until North gets to lead).

I just said the contract was "OK", not awesome -- it's also totally OK not to bid it, if you prefer so

The problem here is that East bid EXTREMELY poorly. 3D was the correct rebid. 3NT was not only misguided, but it invoked unilateral decision making opposite a partner whose hand had not yet been fully described.

When opener jump shifts, you give him/her room to clarify WHY he/she has absolutely forced to game. (By the way, while I agree with the 3C bid, opener is dead minimum for it.) In general, responder either rebids his/her suit, shows excess values for game by bidding the 4th suit, raises the second suit with a very strong fit for it, or - most often - simply preferences back to opener's first suit (occasionally even on a singleton!). Responder only occasionally rebids 3NT, which shows constructive and largely soft values including at least a double stopper in the 4th suit. On this auction, a hand like JTxx, AQJ, xx, xxxx would be more like the classic 3NT rebid.

How much easier this scheme works with the actual hands:

1D-1S
3C-3D
3S

Now responder understands - 3 card spade support, about 20 points, primary diamond suit, secondary club suit (3-1-5-4 shape expected) - and can act intelligently and cooperatively as a partnership rather than unilaterally. After opener's 3S rebid, responder can now show the heart value and suggest NT with a 3NT bid.

With opener's hand, I would leave 3NT rest inasmuch as there is really nothing more for opener to show that he/she has not already.

 Caitlynne, on 2016-September-09, 14:37, said:

Isnt that depending on whether 3C is 100% GF or not?

I posed that question above --- really not sure what the American Standards (SAYC, 2/1) dictate?

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-09, 14:51, said:

it is gf

 helene_t, on 2016-September-09, 15:01, said:

In that case, my vote is definitely on 3NT over 3C, as in: "STOP PD!!! NO MORE!!!"

 Caitlynne, on 2016-September-09, 14:37, said:

This comment hits upon a very key point both over reverses and jump shifts that many people miss. With a non-descript hand, it is often right for responder to make the minimum hand rebid and get out of the way of opener, so opener can complete telling the story about their hand. The nature of these strong auctions make it nearly impossible for responder to fully describe his/her hand. So the best option for finding the right spot is to let opener complete clarifying their hand, then have responder cooperate in getting to the right contract.

 rmnka447, on 2016-September-10, 00:13, said:

I understand the point you are trying to make but a 2♣ opening would be a better second example than a reverse. With the latter the negative rebid, if used, typically does not invite Opener to describe their hand further unless maximum so it is generally better for Responder to steer the auction to the correct area - fit, cog, sign-off, SI, etc - and then hand it back to Opener for any remaining decisions. In that way it is a little like bidding over a 1NT opening.

My preferred methods take this idea to extreme in that the majority of GF auctions are of the one-way (relay) type, so I thoroughly approve of the concept. You just have to be careful of how that implements itself into a natural system - once you have started a natural auction it is rarely correct to revert to relays, although a "mark-time"/grope bid, which acts somewhat like a relay in practice, is often a good idea.

 helene_t, on 2016-September-09, 04:13, said:

Is that because your 1♦ opening is unbalanced?

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-08, 12:49, said:

Very few players play 2/1 GF.these days.But we would like to hear more about new suit at 2 level as a one round force and its further developments with various 5/6 HCP hands with responder.I do like ,and certainly may more will,your brand new ideas for improving the" Substandard Standard" system that we play all over the states.

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-08, 12:49, said:

We would certainly be eager to know your new idea of playing a new suit at 2 level by opener on his first rebid as one round force.It will be most interesting to know how you develop the bidding further when responder has 5/6 HCP and the opener a bare 5/4 with 11/12 HCPand opponents just keeping quiet white vs red.By the way very few old fashioned players play 2/1 GF these days.Your contributions will be welcome by all those who play the present "substandard standard system" in all states.

 helene_t, on 2016-September-09, 04:13, said:

Very well said,Madam.(or is it Miss ?).You have nicely illustrated ,with fitting examples, the difficulty in bidding such hands.Personally,my feeling is that a jump shift in minor suits as in the given hand is a ' slight' overbid but even then with bare kings in the outside two suits a 3 diamond rebid by the responder just says all.

 msjennifer, on 2016-September-10, 03:07, said:

Is that true? In my area, almost nobody ever played it (I think) but I thought it was still on a steady rise in US?

 msjennifer, on 2016-September-10, 03:19, said:

I already mentioned above, with very weak responder hands you may sometimes have issues, of course.

So it's a matter of priorities, pinpointing the partscore contracts, or pinpointing the game/slam contracts.

It's not much different, than when you first tell a player that
"1M-1NT is forcing one round."
"What? But... what if 1NT is our best spot?"
Personally, at least at MP, in practical play, I still feel this is a more valid concern, than 1X-1Y-1Z or 1X-1Y-2Z being forcing.

But, if it's really true what you say... that 2/1 GF is on its way out (never heard that before), I think I'll have to rest my case for now...

Probably, the main upside of 1X-1Y-2Z forcing, is that you can easily show a good 5-5 hand with a jump to 3C.

If you play that jump is GF with 5-4 or better, you can not show your 5-5 below 3NT, potentially (with a better-than-minimum responder) missing a good 6C-slam, etc.
Or, alternatively, "feeling forced" to rebid your second suit at the 4-level, when you should have not.

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-10, 06:21, said:

It's easy to play transfer rebids by Opener over 1♦-1M and 1♥-1♠ if

1♣ = nat. or 12-14 bal. (possibly including 5H(332))
1♦ = nat., but not 12-14 bal.
1♥ = 5+ H (possibly excluding 5H(332)).

Then e.g.

1♦-1♥; ?:

1♠ = 4+ S, NF
1N = 4+ C
2♣ = 6+ D
2♦ = 3c H raise (including 18-19 bal. w/ 3 H)
2♥ = 4c H raise, min
2♠ = 4+ S, GF
2N = 18-19 bal., 2 H
3♣+ = raise structure.

Most of this is well known. But you can also play transfer a similar scheme of transfer rebids over 1♣-1R if in response to 1♣ either

1♦ = 4+ H
1♥ = 4+ S

as in T-Walsh, which isn't GCC legal, or

1♦ = 4+ S, may have longer H unless GF
1♥ = 4+ H, less than 4 S unless GF,

using something very similar to Helene's Spades-Walsh, which is GCC legal. Then e.g.

1♣-1♥(=4+ H); ?:

1♠ = 5+ C, unbal.
1N = 12-14 bal., 2-3 H
2♣ = D reverse
2♦ = 3c H raise (including 18-19 bal. w/ 3 H)
2♥ = 4c H raise, min
2♠ = S reverse
2N = 18-19 bal., 2 H
3♣+ = raise structure

I could have explained all this in much more detail, but this seems to be the wrong thread and forum.

What about:

3♦: waiting bid denying six spades and denying a double stopper in hearts. Opener will show 3-card support after which responder can show a single heart stopper. With a single heart stopper and/or Hx in spades, opener can rebid 3♥ after which responder can show a hand suitable for a 5-2 fit, or a single heart stopper.

3♥: six+ spades! This gives opener room to make a waiting bid of 3♠ after which responder can show a single heart stopper.

3♠: 5-5 majors!

3NT: double heart stopper.

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-10, 06:13, said:

Even if it's not on he rise I think that the overwhelming majority of US players. It is becoming popular here too.

The comment that its popularity is waning is not even remotely true.

 Stefan_O, on 2016-September-10, 06:13, said:

Even if it's not on the rise I think that the overwhelming majority of US players. It is becoming popular here too.

The comment that its popularity is waning is not even remotely true.

 helene_t, on 2016-September-09, 04:13, said:

3♦is Responder's best rebid on the originally quoted hand and this should not lead to a problem if Opener is on the same wavelength. This keeps the auction sufficiently low that Opener's next bid is meaningful: 3♠ with 3-card support, 3NT with a decent heart stop, 4♣ with 5/5; with nothing particular to emphasise Responder can bid fourth suit forcing cheaply. If the auction starts 1♦-1♠-3♣-3♦-4♣, a raise to 5♣ does not invite correction back to diamonds!

Yes, the auction 1♥-1♠-3♦ is notoriously space consuming (even 1♥-1♠-2♦ is awkward), which is why some regular partnerships seek to solve this and other problems by playing a non-natural rebid structure after 1♥-1♠.