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If you play a strong NT (15-17, 16-18 etc.) and you hold a 4333 hand in the middle of the range, say
♠AT9 ♥ Q62 ♦ AJT ♣ KQT3
and it goes:
1NT-2♦!-2♥- 2NT;
MUST you show the heart fit? (either 3♥ or 4♥ as your judgement indicates.)
Partner could be a flat 5332 hand or he could be more shapely 5422, 5431 with only invitational values.
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MUST a 4333 1NT Opener show a fit? aFter a 1NT Opener Responder is Captain. Must Opener show a fit?
#2
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Posted 2013-April-27, 20:28
Justin Lall owns this particular topic. If you as opener are going to be making this kind of judgement, you first need to know whether responder is indeed 5-3-3-2. If you can't know that with your given methods, I recommend just showing that you have support.
We (partner and I) don't have the tools to sort it out in invitational auctions after a NT opening. We do have a toy for 1M openings, where the other hand is 4-3-3-3 and wants to give opener the choice between 4M and 3N, but that is not your question.
We (partner and I) don't have the tools to sort it out in invitational auctions after a NT opening. We do have a toy for 1M openings, where the other hand is 4-3-3-3 and wants to give opener the choice between 4M and 3N, but that is not your question.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#3
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Posted 2013-April-28, 02:48
pgmer6809, on 2013-April-27, 18:58, said:
If you play a strong NT (15-17, 16-18 etc.) and you hold a 4333 hand in the middle of the range, say
♠AT9 ♥ Q62 ♦ AJT ♣ KQT3
and it goes:
1NT-2♦!-2♥- 2NT;
MUST you show the heart fit? (either 3♥ or 4♥ as your judgement indicates.)
Partner could be a flat 5332 hand or he could be more shapely 5422, 5431 with only invitational values.
♠AT9 ♥ Q62 ♦ AJT ♣ KQT3
and it goes:
1NT-2♦!-2♥- 2NT;
MUST you show the heart fit? (either 3♥ or 4♥ as your judgement indicates.)
Partner could be a flat 5332 hand or he could be more shapely 5422, 5431 with only invitational values.
3N = 10, 3♥ = 9, 4♥ = 8.
#4
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Posted 2013-May-02, 03:27
If you decide to decline the invite, I would show the support.
It may well be that partners hand improves, if he knowes about a fit.
If you decide to accept the invite, hiding the support is certainly a valid
option, ... my partner does this, I dont, I usually guess wrong, so I prefer
to be on the safe side in the post mortem.
He showed the 5 card in search of a 8 card fit, I have a 8 card fit, I show the
8 card fit.
With kind regards
Marlowe
It may well be that partners hand improves, if he knowes about a fit.
If you decide to accept the invite, hiding the support is certainly a valid
option, ... my partner does this, I dont, I usually guess wrong, so I prefer
to be on the safe side in the post mortem.
He showed the 5 card in search of a 8 card fit, I have a 8 card fit, I show the
8 card fit.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#5
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Posted 2013-May-02, 09:02
Given that 2NT is invitational saying nothing about shape, I think you should convert to 3♥. With a part-score, a 5-3 fit is a big winner over 2NT. When there is known game strength it is more optional, with perhaps 3NT proving as good when the total hcp increases, but with 26+ I prefer the major generally. Here, however, you are known to be marginal, and if you decide to bid game, it is a gamble. Consequently, I gamble on the 9 tricks of 3NT rather than the 10 of hearts.
FWIW on the topic of 5332 shapes, I play responder rebidding 3 of the other major as game force with 5332, then with a 3334 opener converts to 3NT.
FWIW on the topic of 5332 shapes, I play responder rebidding 3 of the other major as game force with 5332, then with a 3334 opener converts to 3NT.
#6
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Posted 2013-May-02, 09:16
fromageGB, on 2013-May-02, 09:02, said:
FWIW on the topic of 5332 shapes, I play responder rebidding 3 of the other major as game force with 5332, then with a 3334 opener converts to 3NT.
Does this mean:
1N-2D
2H-3N=artificial showing some unbalanced hand? That would seem to be a space-consuming inversion where opener still doesn't know the other suit held by responder.
But, the thread is about invites by responder, so maybe I shouldn't have furthered this side issue.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#7
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Posted 2013-May-02, 09:22
aguahombre, on 2013-May-02, 09:16, said:
Does this mean:
1N-2D
2H-3N=artificial showing some unbalanced hand? That would seem to be a space-consuming inversion where opener still doesn't know the other suit held by responder.
1N-2D
2H-3N=artificial showing some unbalanced hand? That would seem to be a space-consuming inversion where opener still doesn't know the other suit held by responder.
Other suit? Logically this should be a spade splinter with long hearts, no? It seems ok, albeit somewhat risky and prone to end up having to buy a beer or two.
(-: Zel :-)
#8
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Posted 2013-May-02, 09:30
aguahombre, on 2013-May-02, 09:16, said:
Does this mean:
1N-2D
2H-3N=artificial showing some unbalanced hand? That would seem to be a space-consuming inversion where opener still doesn't know the other suit held by responder.
But, the thread is about invites by responder, so maybe I shouldn't have furthered this side issue.
1N-2D
2H-3N=artificial showing some unbalanced hand? That would seem to be a space-consuming inversion where opener still doesn't know the other suit held by responder.
But, the thread is about invites by responder, so maybe I shouldn't have furthered this side issue.
Off topic, but I use this to play. Rather than show a minor second suit, as responder I transfer to it. If my second suit was the other major, I would smolen or jump diamonds conventionally. OK, I have a spare bid, transfer to the major then rebid 3♦, but there is no meaning put on this yet. (BTW I play 15/16 NT with no invitations, so major transfer then 2NT is GF (slam try) transfer to clubs.)
Edit - the 3NT rebid denies the 5332, as that is shown with the 3 other major. No reason why these cannot be transposed. In fact I could incorporate my spare bid to show whether the doubleton is in spades or a minor.
#9
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Posted 2013-May-03, 00:43
fromageGB, on 2013-May-02, 09:30, said:
Off topic, but I use this to play. Rather than show a minor second suit, as responder I transfer to it. If my second suit was the other major, I would smolen or jump diamonds conventionally. OK, I have a spare bid, transfer to the major then rebid 3♦, but there is no meaning put on this yet. (BTW I play 15/16 NT with no invitations, so major transfer then 2NT is GF (slam try) transfer to clubs.)
With no invites, you could use something like
1NT - 2♦; 2♥
==
2♠ = 4+ clubs or 5♥(332)
2NT = 4 diamonds
3♣ = 5+ diamonds
3♦ = 5+ spades
3♥ = strong one-suiter
1NT - 2♥; 2♠
==
2NT = 4+ clubs
3♣ = 4 diamonds
3♦ = 5+ diamonds
3♥ = 5♠(332)
3♠ = strong one-suiter
You can get quite a lot more in here if you want to but that is probably unnecessary with such a limited 1NT opening.
(-: Zel :-)
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Posted 2013-May-06, 12:19
Well i can imagine some toys to figure stuff out, but they are not definitely mainstream so ill pass on those.
With the hand, probably bid 3H or 3NT, depends on how you value the high spots, although on the other hand, what is the point of using an invitational bid after 1NT opening with a point-range of 3?
With the hand, probably bid 3H or 3NT, depends on how you value the high spots, although on the other hand, what is the point of using an invitational bid after 1NT opening with a point-range of 3?
#11
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Posted 2013-May-06, 16:23
phoenix214, on 2013-May-06, 12:19, said:
.. although on the other hand, what is the point of using an invitational bid after 1NT opening with a point-range of 3?
um, to invite partner to bid game if he is at the good end of the range? Most people do. There is often a trick difference.
#12
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Posted 2013-May-06, 19:35
phoenix214, on 2013-May-06, 12:19, said:
although on the other hand, what is the point of using an invitational bid after 1NT opening with a point-range of 3?
It is part of the partnership transfer structure. Credit or blame is transferred back to opener for her decision to accept or decline.
There is a contingent of posters who believe that their sims and knowledge of probabilities are better indicators than partner's opinion if they invite, so they just bid game or not. It saves Opener the bother of looking at her hand.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#13
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Posted 2013-May-07, 05:21
I feel happier with a 2 point range. Then as responder I don't need the fine judgement to decide whether to pass, bid game or to invite. 3-way decisions are tricky. With a 2-way decision you just toss a coin within your pocket and feel whether it is a head or a tail. The maths of doing this to select a 3-way choice is probably beyond me, and anyway, if I fumbled in my pocket for that length of time, people might get the wrong ideas.
#14
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Posted 2013-May-07, 05:26
Look at the second hand of your watch: 1 - 20 = weak option; 21 - 40 = middle option; 41-60 = strong option. If you are feeling clever for the day you could add a random seed and take +1 - 20, etc from that.
(-: Zel :-)
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Posted 2013-May-07, 18:31
fromageGB, on 2013-May-07, 05:21, said:
... if I fumbled in my pocket for that length of time, people might get the wrong ideas ...
Zelandakh, on 2013-May-07, 05:26, said:
... If you are feeling clever for the day you could add a random seed...
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