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To invite or not, and how

#1 User is offline   billyjef 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 09:50

In a team match yesterday with some fellow B/Iers, sitting south, I was dealt this hand:

K98x
xx
K9
K9xxx

bidding:
W N E S
P 1C P 1S
P 1NT P ?

What do you bid, if anything? If you invite, how would you invite and why...tyia.

Jef
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:01

When NV I bid Pass. 3 kings isn't that great.

When V on the other hand, you may not let game pass away. So I bid 2C checkback. And if that isn't standard knowledge, then I'd bid 2NT...
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#3 User is offline   billyjef 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:02

I should add we were Vulnerable. tyia, Jef
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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:06

Quote

K98x
xx
K9
K9xxx

bidding:
W N E S
P 1C P 1S
P 1NT P ?

What do you bid, if anything? If you invite, how would you invite and why...tyia.


Ok, Team match, so it is imps, but you didn't say if you were vulnerable or not. This is an important issue. At imps, you want to stretch to try to reach close game when vulnerable, but when not vul, you can bid more conservately. You really need to think such thoughts at the table.

Ok, so lets assume first you are not vulnerable. I would pass. End of story. Partner might have as much as 14 hcp, but everytime i go bidding here, I catch him with 12. And even when he has 14 hcp, you will not necessarily make 3NT.

Now, if I was vulnerable, I would have to make a game try. The two obvious gane tries are 2NT and 3C. But this hand looks balanced, so I would bid 2NT. I guess if partner is looking at 11, 12 or yucky 13 he will pass either 2NT or 3C. After all, at this vul, I would bid most CLOSE games without inviting. So when it goes 1C-1S; 1N-2N when we are vul, Partner KNOWS I am not looking at 11 or 12 hcp, or I would have taken a shot at 3NT myself (can't afford to miss games vul). This inference is even stronger with a jump to 3C I guess. But my choice here is 2NT if vulnerable.

Ben
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#5 User is offline   billyjef 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:20

I chose to bid 3 clubs thinking that if there was a reasonable chance of game that knowing a potential source of tricks would help. My pd bid 3 diamonds over 3 clubs at which point I panicked thinking my 3 club had drawn a map sufficiently for the opps so I bid 3nt -1. If I were more bold, I suppose a 3 heart bid would have been more of a psyche then 3nt.

Pd held:
Txx
Qxx
Axx
AQTx

Jef
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#6 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:21

I would say vul is not that important here, i will bid 3c, limited raise. If pd makes a game try, i will be happy to cooperate.
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#7 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 10:24

Quote

I chose to bid 3 clubs thinking that if there was a reasonable chance of game that knowing a potential source of tricks would help. My pd bid 3 diamonds over 3 clubs at which point I panicked thinking my 3 club had drawn a map sufficiently for the opps so I bid 3nt -1. If I were more bold, I suppose a 3 heart bid would have been more of a psyche then 3nt.

Pd held:
Txx
Qxx
Axx
AQTx

Jef


pd should pass 3c, afterall, he is min. 3c is abosolutely correct. but if pd bid 3d, perhaps you should bid 3h to ask for the stopper in h.
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#8 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 11:07

2c, signoff.
Chances for game even vulnerable are rare and the hand will play on clubs a lot better than in NT.
I'm tired to run a simulation but my instinct says that 3nt might make in about 15%-20% of the cases, certainly not enough 8/9 tricks in clubs should be the percentage bid.
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Posted 2003-October-20, 11:25

Luis is right that game is not very likely. But you have to weigh the times when game does make versus time your partner passes your invite and you go down. That is while 1NT is fairly safe, how much more unsafe is 2NT and 3C than 1NT and 2C and compare taht with the times when a vulnerable game makes.

It certainly is close. If your partner opened some yucky 11 or 12, 2NT and 3C could well be one trick too high. If your partner has a meaty 14 and the fifth club is working, well.. game might work. So it is not the percentage of the time game makes, (say 20%) that is important. You have to weigh the percentage of the time it makes versus the percentage of time your game invite goes down one.... This makes bidding or inviting when vul very close indeed.

Ben
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#10 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 11:30

Quote

Luis is right that game is not very likely. But you have to weigh the times when game does make versus time your partner passes your invite and you go down. That is while 1NT is fairly safe, how much more unsafe is 2NT and 3C than 1NT and 2C and compare taht with the times when a vulnerable game makes.

It certainly is close. If your partner opened some yucky 11 or 12, 2NT and 3C could well be one trick too high. If your partner has a meaty 14 and the fifth club is working, well.. game might work. So it is not the percentage of the time game makes, (say 20%) that is important. You have to weigh the percentage of the time it makes versus the percentage of time your game invite goes down one.... This makes bidding or inviting when vul very close indeed.

Ben


I don't think it's worth the try because you have to try for a game in NT while your best denomination is clubs. That's why this is probable not worth the risk even 1NT can go down with 8/9 tricks in clubs, so bidding 2NT to go down 1/2/3 in 2NT or go down 1/2/3 in 3NT is not sound because you'd probably be +something in 2c.
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#11 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 13:04

Quote

In a team match yesterday with some fellow B/Iers, sitting south, I was dealt this hand:

K98x
xx
K9
K9xxx

bidding:
W N E S
P 1C P 1S
P 1NT P ?

What do you bid, if anything? If you invite, how would you invite and why...tyia.

Jef


If partner had opened a weak NT I would have passed without giving it a second thought. I don't think the club fit (which may only be 8 cards) is enough to change my bid.

Eric
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#12 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 14:13

Quote

Quote

In a team match yesterday with some fellow B/Iers, sitting south, I was dealt this hand:

K98x
xx
K9
K9xxx

bidding:
W N E S
P 1C P 1S
P 1NT P ?

What do you bid, if anything? If you invite, how would you invite and why...tyia.

Jef


If partner had opened a weak NT I would have passed without giving it a second thought. I don't think the club fit (which may only be 8 cards) is enough to change my bid.

Eric


Yes it's different than a weak NT opening. Now you have the option to play 2c that is a lot better than 1NT :-)

Luis
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#13 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2003-October-20, 19:36

I agree with Luis and EricK. I would not contemplat nviting with this hand. In our case we would have to play this in 1N. 2C would be checkback. I would argue that you lose more by bidding on this hand in that 2N, (which is a contract I loath with a passion), will go down often enough to make the game bonus not worthwhile in those cases when 3N does make. This argument holds even more true when your 1C opening can be as few as 2, as it is in our system. However I would still pass even playing an opener showing 3+C.
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#14 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2003-October-21, 04:16

i'd pass not vul, 2nt vul.. look at opener's hand tho.. imagine you're playing a weak nt, 10-13.. he opens 1nt with that... <now> what do you bid as responder? wouldn't you pass? i would
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#15 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2003-October-21, 06:39

Hi Jef!
If you play modern limit of 14-16 1NT opening, 1NT rebid will be 11-13 and no need to invite with such hand. In case of 11-14 rebid, it is still not good for inv hand, because lack of QT. Examples of good hand same hcp for inv: AQxx-xx-xx-Kxxxx or xxxx-xx-Ax-KQxxx
NT or CL contract? We have CL fit, opp probably too. I expect they have DI fit because no take out dbls. You have K DI, no A - NT contract is probably better.
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#16 User is offline   ReginaldF 

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Posted 2003-October-24, 17:43

Openers 1NT rebid I assume shows 12-14, responder has 9points and a ragedy 5card suit, so
23 points where are the 9 tricks coming from, OK, playing against me, defensive errors, but in any game of a reasonable standard pass 1NT. We in the club R trying to improve so Pass, the 1 time in 50 you make 3NT will never get back the points you lose on the other 49 hands.

IMHO
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#17 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2003-November-02, 01:07

PASS - you do not have enough POINTS or DIST to bid again as P has MAX 14 points ;D

quote author=billyjef link=board=5;threadid=1250;start=0#msg7808 date=1066665026]
In a team match yesterday with some fellow B/Iers, sitting south, I was dealt this hand:

K98x
xx
K9
K9xxx

bidding:
W N E S
P 1C P 1S
P 1NT P ?

What do you bid, if anything? If you invite, how would you invite and why...tyia.

Jef

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