[benlessard]

♦Lets make a quick summary of take-out X at the 2 or 3 level.


1s---3d ---- ???



perfect hands for a X (shortness in the opps suit good support in the 2 unbid suit tol for your partner)

♠xx ♥aqxxx ♦x ♣kxxxx

♠xx ♥aqxx ♦x ♣ kxxxxx

♠xx ♥aqxxx ♦xx ♣kxxx


decent take-out X (2 out of 3)


♠xx ♥aqxx ♦xxx ♣kxxx

♠x ♥aqxx ♦xx ♣kxxxxx

♠xx ♥aqxxxx ♦Kxx ♣xx





ugly take-out X ( 1.5 out of 3 but extra values )


♠xx ♥aqx ♦qxxx ♣kxxx

♠x ♥aqjxxxx ♦xxx ♣xx

♠x ♥aqj ♦qxxx ♣Qxxxx









1d--2s---pass----pass
???

perfect hands for a X (shortness in the opps suit good support in the 2 unbid suit extra values)

♠x ♥aqxx ♦akxxx ♣qxx

♠x ♥aqx ♦akxxx ♣kxxx

♠x ♥aqx ♦akxxxx ♣kxx



decent take-out X (2 out of 3)


♠x ♥aq ♦akxxx ♣kxxxx

♠x ♥aqxx ♦akxxxx ♣kx

♠ax ♥aq ♦kjtxxxx ♣kx

♠xxx ♥aqx ♦aKjxx ♣kqx

♠x ♥ajx ♦axxxx ♣kxxx



ugly take-out X

♠xxx ♥akqx ♦akqxx ♣x

♠xx ♥x ♦akqjtxxx ♣ak

etc...


as a general rule the more trump in opp suit you have the more pts you need to X.


doubling with a void is dangerous since you cant lead a trump nor lead trump throught declarer.


doubling with a doubleton in a unbid suit is a flaw since partner is likely to bid that suit.


doubling with a trump stack is useless since partner will pull it off 99% of the time.


doubling with a stiff in partner suit is dangerous since partner is likely to rebid his suit if he doesnt have a 2nd suit or not enough trumps to pass the X.


doubling with a balanced hand is annoying since partner is unlikely to have a stopper in their suit and you gonna endup in a 4-3 fit often.







Now if we look at the standard take out-X converted in penalty


1s---3d ---- X ----pass

pass

or

1d-----2s-----pass-----pass
X -----pass----pass




number of trumps in overcaller suit



opener ----overcaller-------partner

0,1,2 ---------5,6,7------------4,5

4--------------5,6,7------------0,1,2




IMHO punishing the opps work when

they go down at least -800 or

you have at least 6 trumps in their suit or

you have no game on your side or

passing lead to your only + score. (if partner pull he will go down)




so standard strategies are ...



Having a real penalty X hand you have to pass hoping partner can reopen.

If trumps are split evenly (3-3) you cant really punish them

with a penalty x you sometimes have to bid game since if you passed partner is unlikely to reopen

to reopen with a X agressivly since partner can have a penalty pass.

to lead trump if partner passed the take-out X.

to lead trump throught declarer to stop him for making his small trumps.

To tap declarer

to avoid passing a take-out X with 4 small or if declarer is behind you.

To avoid take-out X with a void




So why do i think standard approach is lame...




because youre not likely to be short in opp suit. Most hand are balanced or semi balanced instead of being the perfect 4441 or 5431 shapes.


So why not reversed the meaning of the take-out X.

X = partner i have some extra strenght are you short in their suit ? if yes please bid if not PASS they are in trouble.

instead of punishing the opps when trumps are split 5-1, 4-2,5-1 we punish them when its 4-2,3-3, 3-2


when trumps split badly declarer can often end-play of make trump reduction. Often he can ruff with his small trumps sometime you can lead trump throught declarer only once sometimes you cant.

Balanced hand have a better defensive vs offensive ratio. So 2 balanced hand are good in def poor in offense.

At first glance declarer with akqxxx he seems happy the trumps are 3-3 but when he will go down -200 to find out they was no game making in the other room.


when trump split 5-1 and you get a juicy penalty most of the time game was making anyway.


but when trumps break more evenly often the opps gonna get a ruff or a trump promotion.


overall balanced hand play better in defense and shapely hand better in offense...

take-out double do just the opposite.




Perfect X become the worst take-out

worst take-out become the perfect X.





Example

standard ------reversed





1c----2h-----???

5233----------------5323,
3253----------------3352
4243----------------4342
5143-----------------5314
3262-----------------2362

4144----------------no
4054----------------no

6133----------------6313,6331,1363

no or 3nt------------4333,3343, etc...



First time ive saw something around those line was Marshal Miles take out style after 1nt---3??----X he said that he prefer X to show a balanced hand and that with 5s and a stiff he prefer to bid 3 or 4s.


Also those who play power X and use the cheapest nt overcall as take-out.



reversed take-out strategies



Having a real penalty X hand you have to pass hoping partner cannot bid.

If trumps are split unevenly (5-1) you cant really punish them

with a penalty x you sometimes have to bid game since if you passed partner is unlikely to reopen

to reopen with a X with extra values and trumps since partner can pass with limited values and trumps .

to lead in your partner probable shortness or in your shortness if partner passed the take-out X.

no need to lead trump throught declarer unless there is a ruff probable on dummy.

Tapping declarer seems unlikely.

to avoid passing a take-out X with 2 small or with 3 and sub-minimum values if . declarer is behind you.

To avoid take-out X with only 2.

[Flame]

I think what you suggest has the same idea as garozzo 2/3 doubles.

[benlessard]

Not sure what are 2/3 doubles.

Could you please post a link on the subject.


I know Italians teams used to played exclusion over take-out double the responder of the take-out bid his worst suit and the take-out doubler bid his longuest of the 2 remaining suits. it allowed them to double with off-shapes take-out hands (2-suited hands)


Ben

[inquiry]

Yes takeout doubles are lame. I suggest you never use one again :0)

[pigpenz]

yes even takeout doubles that are converted to penalty that should go down sometimes make cause of that magic double fear....I guess you need to look at risk vs gain and what type of game you are playing.

[benlessard]

Well the game i see these day is


all doubles are take-out

preempt are "1 step higher" because they never double us anyway.

2 suiter could be 4-4 and even a balanced 4432.

2 level preempt is likely to be 5 cause with 6 we will bid at the 3 level.

9 high preempt.

cheesy lead-directing bid or X

cheesy opening bid

mini no-trump

cheesy overcall.

white vs red you can bid anything.

off-shapes light take-out double

bid thin game instead of taking an easy plus

crazy 4 over 4 bids.

cheesy overcall after a preempt.

X and bidding a new suit with less values then it used to be.

super-light balancing





The more room you give them the more they will take.


When good players think that

2h--2s---X should be used for other thing then penalty

1d--1nt---X can be pulled


i understand why we bid with very little values



Years of everybody playing take-out X and almost no business X everybody are in overbidding mode now.




The answer is easy

purely take-out double don`t lead to enough doubled contracts.

purely penalty X are too rare

co-op doubles are the way to go.





Me ive started collecting what is mine by doubling.

And they give me more IMPs and satisfaction then purely take-out X





Ben

[EarlPurple]

Take out (negative) doubles are going to occur far more frequently than penalty ones because if my partner is long in diamonds and RHO is long in spades, chances are higher that I will be long in hearts and clubs.

Hands where you would make a take out (negative) double are often those where you would be "fixed" for a bid without them. That's why they were introduced and became so popular.

What I have seen too much of is a player who opens light then pulling their partner's penalty double. It's one of the advantages of sound opening bids, although it's true that light opening bids will encourage more interference.