[Gerben42]

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I believe the best way to fight terrorists is to let them know that they don't achieve anything.

Yes that's the best way. I was in London last July and the next day the Underground was running again. Let them know: That does not discourage us, the show must and will go on. All people who FAILED to take the Underground the next day (and there were many - it wasn't as full as before) should think about this and do the opposite.

[Badmonster]

Hannie, on Apr 20 2006, 04:22 PM, said:

Badmonster, on Apr 20 2006, 08:32 AM, said:

helene_t, on Apr 20 2006, 04:28 AM, said:

To me, Islam is the way it's used today. If the nett impact of Islam today is negative, then it is a bad religion, no matter how wonderful it was originally meant and how wonderfully it once worked and how wonderful it is in the interpretation of those who did not let their intepretatition influence by hatred, originating from economic problems in the Middle East.

I'm not claiming that the nett impact of Islam is negative. It's quite possible that the Middle East as well as Middle-Eastern migrant populations in Europe would be even worse off without Islam. But many (not all) imams in Europe say very intollerant and reactionary things in the name of Islam. And to the audience as well as to me, what they say is Islam (per definition), even if it is historically and theologically incorrect.

I don't mean to pick on Helene, who I suspect is probably a lovely person, but this is what I mean about sensitivity. We have a lot of Muslim players on bbo. I imagine some of them probably read the forums. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most of them are not hate-filled xenophobic, terrorists. And so, I worry that perhaps your post might hurt their feelings, the way my feelings would be hurt if someone posted that Jews are money-sucking misers who eat Christian babies at passover.

Oh come on, Helene said nothing offensive or insensitive in this post! How can you compare this post with saying that jews eat babies? I think that's absurd.

Helene makes two comments: (I hope I'm not misquoting you Helene)

1) That the Islam (as we talk about it) is what it is now, not what it was 1500 years ago.

2) That many imams in Europe say things that we [here: a majority of Western Europeans] see as absolutely intolerant (and worse).

She also correctly stated that this it is not true that all imams say these things.

How can you find something offensive in these words?

Should we not say that we think that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men?

Should we not mention that we think homosexuals should have the same rights and opportunities as heterosexuals?

There surely are Muslim players on BBO who think very differently on these issues, and might take offense when reading this. Hopefully there are others who are interested in reading how we think about these things, even if they might not agree. (and maybe there are also Muslims players on BBO who agree, I don't know, but I'd be interested in hearing from them)

I'm not planning to defend Helene, who I suspect is a horrible person, more often, but if you want to pick on her I suggest you find a better reason to do so, not just because she is saying what she thinks.

It really wasn't my intention to pick on Helene. I think that saying that Muslims are intolerant and reactionary might be offensive. But it's very possible this is not what she said. In which case I have misunderstood.

Perhaps the baby eating was a poor choice of words, I didn't mean to imply that Helene was hurling insults, but rather than stereotypes can be insulting.


Are we fighting now?

[luke warm]

Badmonster, on Apr 20 2006, 08:32 AM, said:

I don't mean to pick on Helene, who I suspect is probably a lovely person, 

i suspect so too

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but this is what I mean about sensitivity. We have a lot of Muslim players on bbo. I imagine some of them probably read the forums. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most of them are not hate-filled xenophobic, terrorists.

was helene speaking of muslims who are or who are not hate-filled xenophobic terrorists? if of those who are, nothing in her post seems in any way offensive to the ones who are not

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And so, I worry that perhaps your post might hurt their feelings, the way my feelings would be hurt if someone posted that Jews are money-sucking misers who eat Christian babies at passover.

i don't grasp the analogy... the people helene was referring to are preaching hate now... she isn't using rumors, she's using their own words

i doubt helene thinks the imans she referred to speak for all muslims, any more than pat robertson speaks for all christians

[helene_t]

Thanks Jimmy (who's also a lovely person in spite of hes wicked views on the dimensionality of time-space ) and Han (who seems to know me better than most )

No Badmonster, I did not mean to say that moslims are intollerant. In fact, the Moslems that I know personally are generally very sympathetic towards people with other religions while the same cannot allways be said about non-moslems. Whether this is related to a biased sample, to the fact that Moslems recognize Jesus while Christians do not recognize Mohammed or to something with Middle-Eastern culture versus Western culture not directly related to religion, I do not know.

Maybe I should not talk about the possibility that the net impact of Islam is negative, something that I obviously cannot know since it would require enourmous ammount of knowledge (as well as normative judgement) plus the ability to add apples to pears. I do think, however, that the role the Imams play in political debates here in the Netherlands is dissapointing. Too few are pulling in the right direction and some even pull in the wrong direction, at least so it seems when you read newspapers. I've only participated in an Islamic service once, I must admit, so this is anecdotical. But the experience was horrible: the way the imam talked about Jews was exactly as did certain German politicians during WWII, without exageration.

Then again, there is a tendency among non-moslems to associate any wrong-doing on behalf of immigrants with their religion, something that is unfortunate since it is easier to motivate people to improve their socio-economic status than to abandon their religion.

[Badmonster]

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No Badmonster, I did not mean to say that moslims are intollerant. In fact, the Moslems that I know personally are generally very sympathetic towards people with other religions while the same cannot allways be said about non-moslems. Whether this is related to a biased sample, to the fact that Moslems recognize Jesus while Christians do not recognize Mohammed or to something with Middle-Eastern culture versus Western culture not directly related to religion, I do not know.

This has been my experience as well. And again I apologize for a) misunderstanding and using an extreme phrasing to make a point.

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Maybe I should not talk about the possibility that the net impact of Islam is negative, something that I obviously cannot know since it would require enourmous ammount of knowledge (as well as normative judgement) plus the ability to add apples to pears. I do think, however, that the role the Imams play in political debates here in the Netherlands is dissapointing. Too few are pulling in the right direction and some even pull in the wrong direction, at least so it seems when you read newspapers. I've only participated in an Islamic service once, I must admit, so this is anecdotical. But the experience was horrible: the way the imam talked about Jews was exactly as did certain German politicians during WWII, without exageration.

Because my experience has been like yours I find it difficult to believe that all muslims would subscribe to this sort of propaganda. My objection to your original post was the blanket inclusion I saw in the phrase the net impact of Islam. It's now clear to me that that was not what you intended.

[pigpenz]

going back to the times of the crusades probably the most civilized people in the world were the muslims....they kept science and intelligence going as the Holy Roman Empire tried to keep people in the dark ages.

The crusaders killed jews and eastern orthodox christians as warmups on the way to Jerusalem. Once there the muslims were vary more civilized than the crusaders. Chistianity has gone through many different changes and has been brutal to many people and even their own. I can see why the eastern world feels the way they do.