[sceptic]

Hi

is 1NT 3NT ok with a balanced 4 card major and 10 hcp ? and if not why?

[jillybean]

I think it is better to describe your hand and let your partner decide where best to play.

[hrothgar]

I wouldn't do this with 10 HCP...

I do make this bid with 12 if the hand looks appropriate

[pclayton]

Probably. If its not making 3N its probably not making 4 major either.

[neilkaz]

Jlall, on Oct 7 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

If you're 4333 I would say it's ALWAYS right to bid 3N. Even with xxx AKQx xxx xxx I would bid 3N. In my opinion it is a huge long term winner. Many good things can happen...

1) You get to play 1 level lower, and with balanced hands NT will frequently take just as many tricks as a 4-4 fit, and even if it takes 1 fewer trick it's still fine. It is rare that the 4-4 major fit will take 2 more tricks than NT.

2) The opponents will have a much harder time leading and defending. Most of the time going through stayman will NOT deliver a 4-4 fit and you have now given information to the opps (especially if pard bids the other major). They will lead better and defend with more knowledge. 1N 3N leaves them in the dark, and frequently causes them to lead a major instead of a minor on the basis that you didn't bid stayman.

3) You don't have to worry about a bad trump split dooming 3N. 4-4 fits in particular are very succeptible to bad splits, especially with weak trump spots. You also don't have to worry about bad splits in other suits letting them cross ruff.

4) Even when partner does have xx opposite your xxx, they often don't lead the suit, or the suit is 4-4, etc.

I have no data but even missing a 5-4 trump fit is ok with 5332 opposite 4333 in my opinion. If you are not as diehard as me about this then I would still recommend doing it when you have substantial extras (28+ combined high cards) as you will make 3N on power. Also when your values are spread around or your 4 card major suit is weak. These things amplify the upside of playing 3N as opposed to 4M.

We are in complete agreement and the sim I ran a few years ago with some software agreed clearly. For those of you who play MP (puke/gag since I only play Imp in MBC) when both the major and NT have 10 tricks you win.

At Imps when you have 10 HCP and are 4333 , perhaps you have 4 losers opposite a min NT opening even with a 44 major fit. Just bid 3 NT and let the opps defend with less info. A world champion caliber very good friend and author agrees with me, per our discussion a few years back. You won't always be correct and sometimes opener can have a doubleton and you'll score an extra trick in the suit contract. But other times the trumps split 4-1 and your 25 or 26 HCP 4-4 major game goes off 1 while 3NT makes.

.. neilkaz ..

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you are 4-3-3-3 you will have lots of company,
since there exist a large camp of players, who
would not use Stayman with this shape.

So the answer is yes, but it depends.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

There was an article in Bridge World some months ago by someone in Dunedin, NZ who had used GIB to compute the average score in 3NT versus 4M when opener has 15-17 bal and responder some (semi-balanced) hand and an 8-card fit is available.

His conclusion was that with a 4333 or 5332 there's no reason to investigate a fit since 3NT would play better anyway, whether IMPs or matchpoints. At matchpoints, even with a 6322 a jump to 3NT is better.

These results did not even take into account the information that would be given away by a Stayman sequence and the possibility for opps to double Stayman or transfer.

He noted, however, that it is possible that more nuanced recommendations could be made if other variables, such as the acyness/quarkiness of the hand, had been taken into account.

[barmar]

While I've read numerous articles and bridge books that advise not to bother with Stayman with all 4333 hands, it seems like every time I try this my partner with a small doubleton opposite my unstopped suit. So I prefer to have a little extra, like a 12-14 count -- that way it's less likely that we'll have unstopped suits.

And IIRC, one of the flaws of the study in the Bridge World was that it used double dummy analysis of the hands, rather than normal play and defense. It might be better to use BridgeBrowser to analyze actual play.

[EricK]

barmar, on Oct 9 2006, 03:14 AM, said:

While I've read numerous articles and bridge books that advise not to bother with Stayman with all 4333 hands, it seems like every time I try this my partner with a small doubleton opposite my unstopped suit. So I prefer to have a little extra, like a 12-14 count -- that way it's less likely that we'll have unstopped suits.

And IIRC, one of the flaws of the study in the Bridge World was that it used double dummy analysis of the hands, rather than normal play and defense. It might be better to use BridgeBrowser to analyze actual play.

The trouble with using actual play to test this sort of bidding question is that whether a player chooses one bid or another might depend on his skill level. Another (which may not be so relevant to the 3NT/2♣ question) is that it doesn't take into account how a change to your bidding affects the rest of your system.

A good way to test this sort of thing in practice would be to use a program like GIB or Jack with two different bidding modules and get each version to play a long match against the other. That way you remove any differences due to level of play and also manage to model how the system copes overall.

[ArcLight]

One more advantage of 3NT vs 4 of a major - the opening lead may be from a suit headed by the ace, allowing declarers King to make. Against a suit contract you would not see that lead.

(The opening lead may give away a trick you would not get against a suit contract)