[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

South opens 1♥ and partner doubles. North bids 1NT, and you pass. South leaps to 4♥, ending the auction.

---

t1. Partner leads the King of ♠ and you signal enthusiasm with your 8. Declarer plays low.

t2. Partner now leads a low ♠ to your Ace and declarer again plays low.

t3. You lead a third round of ♠, declarer plays low again, and partner takes his Queen.

t4. Partner exits with a low ♥, and declarer wins in hand with the Ace.

t5. Declarer plays the King of trumps, and partner plays a low ♥.

t6. Declarer now plays the Queen of trumps, and partner discards the 13th ♠.

So declarer started with a seven-card trump suit and is apparently planning to run all his trumps.

What will you discard on t6, t7, t8, t9 and t10 ? Why ?

Hint: What inference can you make about the minor-suit Aces? Why?

[Quantumcat]

I am not really sure, I probably have this totally wrong.

Well declarer can't lose anymore tricks. I guess he is hoping someone is going to unguard something. He doesn't have AK of diamonds or he'd have claimed. Maybe he has the ♦K and ♣AK and hopes whoever has the ♦A also has queen third of clubs. But with nine tricks in his hand he'd have opened 2♣. If he has just the two aces he can't force anyone to unguard the diamond unless clubs and diamonds were in the same hand, and they might accidentally keep clubs over diamonds. Partner could have both the kings and is unsure which to unguard, I will discard my diamonds from the bottom up saying I've got clubs, you take care of diamonds. If I had the diamond ace and thus he had to keep the clubs, I would discard clubs from the top down (I would have small ones presumably). Now pard knows which it is.

[vuroth]

I *think* that if partner had a minor suit ace, he would have led it on trick 4. Given the board, it couldn't cost a trick.

Ergo, declarer has both minor suit aces. He started with 3 spades, 7 hearts, both minor suit aces, and 1 more minor suit card.

If the minor suit card is a king, he's got it made. If partner has both kings, then declarer is squeezing my partner.

I need to let partner know I have clubs covered, so he can unprotect his king of clubs and guard diamonds.

I throw the 7, 5, 4 and 3 of diamonds. I hope that makes it clear.

Spoiler

Which, of course, is not the answer. I throw my clubs away, and hold onto my slim chance of winning the last trick with the beer card.

V

[ralph23]

vuroth, on Jul 30 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

I need to let partner know I have clubs covered ...

Doesn't your partner have clubs covered as well ?

Could partner be concerned that declarer started with ♦Ace and ♣AQ in the minor suits?

Think of it this way: You know declarer has both minor suit Aces, or partner would have already set this contract. You also partner has both minor suit Kings, as otherwise declarer would have claimed.

So think of your job as: I need to tell partner what to discard.

And try to make it as easy on partner as you can. . We're not trying to put him to the test, to see how smart he really is, but to make it as easy for him as we can. Si ?

[han]

We know partner should have both minor suit kings for the double. Discarding a ten of clubs (when playing standard carding) should make it easy on partner.

Playing udca it may look safer to discard the diamonds 7-5-4 because the 9 is usually quite high. However, for it to matter declarer must have ♦Ax ♣A so partner has all the lower club spots and can read your 9.


I would have bid 2D over 1NT but that might not have worked out well. I think the 1NT call is hideous.

[vuroth]

ralph23, on Jul 30 2007, 11:44 AM, said:

So think of your job as: I need to tell partner what to discard.

If partner takes my discards as standard signalling discards, then the ten of clubs looks best. Sometimes, though, throwing my high cards means that I want partner to guard that suit.

It's nice that we have QT9 of clubs here, but what if we had Q32? Would the 3 still say that I like clubs? Or would throwing away 4 diamonds, high to low, give a stronger impression that I have nothing to keep in diamonds?

I know what I want to tell partner, I'm just not sure I know a hard and fast rule as to how to tell her.

V

[bid_em_up]

I would simply discard all my diamonds, lowest to highest playing standard signals.

The 2 of diamonds will say I have nothing in diamonds. By continuing to pitch diamonds, I give partner both count, and the message that I do hold something in clubs, or I could just as easily have pitched a club somewhere along the line. Partner should infer that you do have a club card from your failure to pitch one.

jmoo.
.

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

South opens 1♥ and partner doubles. North bids 1NT, and you pass. South leaps to 4♥, ending the auction.

---

OK, time out gang. I'm exercising my prerogative to change the problem. ... I think this will help spark your play on the original....

As you see above, I have now changed your club suit.

Same question as original: you must make five discards in a row on declarer's trump suit, and you know he holds A Ax in the minors. You just don't know what the "x" is, a ♣ or a ♦. Neither, of course, does your partner.

NB - Recall of course that you know partner has both minor suit kings, else declarer would have already claimed.

Remember also that partner is discarding first, as declarer is running trumps from his hand and you are fourth to play.

So, what are your five discards, in order? Why ?

[bid_em_up]

ralph23, on Jul 31 2007, 10:27 AM, said:

So, what are your five discards, in order? Why ?

Note, it is not a matter of your five discards, it is your first four discards. Partner will have to make his decision on what to keep prior to seeing your fifth discard.

Again, it will be more critical for partner to have a count on the diamond suit so that he will be aware he can reduce himself to a stiff diamond K (or stiff club K), so I will still pitch (using standard signals) my lowest to highest diamonds.

The pitch of the 4th diamond should inform partner that I started with 5 of them (since I pitched lowest to highest). From 7X32 of diamonds, you would pitch the 3 then the 2, then X, showing an original holding of four.

Now that partner has a count on the diamond suit, he can reduce himself to:

- - ♦K ♣Kx

or

- - ♦Kx ♣K

since he should now know how many diamonds declarer started with originally.

Btw, not that it matters, but I consider this to be somewhat more difficult than a beginner or intermediate problem. It does require counting, and the use of inferences in the bidding/play to reach the correct conclusion(s). However, it is a very instructional hand.

[ralph23]

bid_em_up, on Jul 31 2007, 10:59 AM, said:

Btw, not that it matters, but I consider this to be somewhat more difficult than a beginner or intermediate problem. It does require counting, and the use of inferences in the bidding/play to reach the correct conclusion(s). However, it is a very instructional hand.

Thanks very much for the kind comments and I'm indeed glad that you found it interesting and instructional... Yep, it may be too difficult indeed for this forum, as it does involve those things you mention, and esp. since no one has found the right answer yet!! But I predict someone will soon, with the change in the club suit !!

[FrancesHinden]

I've been keeping my mouth shut so far, but I'd like to make a few observations:

i) If you remember, partner doubled the 1H opening bid for take-out. He has turned up with KQxx - xx in the majors, and (on the original problem at least) by inference has the minor suit kings and no other honours. For that to look anything like a normal takeout double he has to be 4-2-3-4 and even then it was pretty light. I don't think KQxx xx Kx Kxxxx is a take-out double of 1H in anyone's books.

That gives declarer precisely

xxx
AKQ10xxx
A
Ax

and, on the original problem (when you held the CQ), it doesn't actually matter what you threw as long as you kept clubs guarded.

ii) Let's pretend that partner thinks a 4225 aceless 11-count is a take-out double, and we have to make sure partner keeps the right card.

In a partnership with good signalling agreements there isn't a single right answer, when you get four discards there are lots of ways of telling partner what to do. However, it is worth thinking of the best way to tell parther if you haven't discussed things in detail.

(to be contineud)

[FrancesHinden]

There is a good point here about signalling methods (which is only tangentially related to the original problem).

Most people play that their first discard is attitude (or reverse attitude).
But what are the later discards?

I am not aware that there is one universal standard, so I shall suggest one possibility.

My agreement is that subsequent discards are current count (in the same way that following suit is also current count). So, if I wanted to show a discouraging odd number of diamonds,

- I first discard the 2 (discouraging)
- I next discard the highest diamond I can afford (an even number left)

As I have time for 4 discards in total, I can show that I started with 5 by discarding the 2, the 7, the 5 and the 4.

Alternatively, on the problem with 432 of clubs, I can show that I started with exactly 3 clubs by discarding the 2 (discouraging), then the 4 (highest remaining club), then the 3 - completing a peter and showing I started with 3 or 5. Partner will know it has to be 3 as he'll find 5 isn't possible (and the 4 wouldn't be the highest one I could afford).

Note that I still carefully haven't answered the original problem.... just pointed out that if you have good agreements there is more than one correct answer. That applies to the original problem as well.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 31 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

There is a good point here about signalling methods (which is only tangentially related to the original problem).

Most people play that their first discard is attitude (or reverse attitude).
But what are the later discards?

I am not aware that there is one universal standard, so I shall suggest one possibility.

My agreement is that subsequent discards are current count (in the same way that following suit is also current count). So, if I wanted to show a discouraging odd number of diamonds,

- I first discard the 2 (discouraging)
- I next discard the highest diamond I can afford (an even number left)

As I have time for 4 discards in total, I can show that I started with 5 by discarding the 2, the 7, the 5 and the 4.

Alternatively, on the problem with 432 of clubs, I can show that I started with exactly 3 clubs by discarding the 2 (discouraging), then the 4 (highest remaining club), then the 3 - completing a peter and showing I started with 3 or 5. Partner will know it has to be 3 as he'll find 5 isn't possible (and the 4 wouldn't be the highest one I could afford).

Note that I still carefully haven't answered the original problem.... just pointed out that if you have good agreements there is more than one correct answer. That applies to the original problem as well.

This is a very good post (no surprise there ) and something that B/I players would do well to study.

Whether you play standard remaining count or upside down doesn't matter.. so long as you and partner are on the same page.