[jillybean]

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ J65432 ♥ ♦ Q643 ♣ 952

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦
 Pass  3♣    Pass  ? 

Playing 2♣ gf, no method to show bust hand. Do you support ♣'s or bid the anemic ♠'s?

[P_Marlowe]

3S, followed by bidding 4S over
3NT or 5C, in case opener bids a
new suit.

The spade suit is anemic, but it is a 6 carder.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

Support with support, please. Typ.

[neilkaz]

Once again I'll get on my soap box about how poor the response system to typical N. Am. 2♣ is.

Here you have no way to tell PD that you have a bust ..YUCK !!

He certainly has a good hand for his 3♣ rebid, but opposite you junk slam isn't too likely unless he has nothing wasted in ♥.

Anyhow..I want to slow PD down. However, 3NT or 4♠ may be our best games here. I'll bid my 6 card ♠ suit and if PD bids 3NT I pass, if PD bids 4♠ I pass, if PD bids 4♣ I will raise to 5.

If after my 3♠ PD rebids 4 of a red suit I have issues as to what he means. I think I'll bid 4♥ after 4♦ and hope he take's it as ♥ control. If he rebids 4♥ I'll just bid 5♣. If that misses a ♠ fit..oh well.

Once again, I am guessing since I don't know if PD thinks I have much or not ! I think a direct 4♣ shows more than I have. (OK I do have 3 card support and a stiff, but my 3 HCP of quacks may be useless and I don't know what PD has possibly wasted in ♥)

This hand and so many 2♣ auctions are easier if we can tell opener our approximate strength with our first bid ! Then opener knows if we are in the slam zone or slam try zone or not, and also knows that if responder has zilch, making game may be an issue.

[jtfanclub]

neilkaz, on Aug 6 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

Anyhow..I want to slow PD down. However, 3NT or 4♠ may be our best games here. I'll bid my 6 card ♠ suit and if PD bids 3NT I pass, if PD bids 4♠ I pass, if PD bids 4♣ I will raise to 5.

If P bids 3NT, I'm bidding 4♣. If he wanted to play in 3NT across a bust, he shoulda bid 3NT.

I should have an entry or two at least in clubs. Tough to believe that he can make 3NT without any entries to dummy.

[neilkaz]

jtfanclub, on Aug 6 2007, 02:29 PM, said:

neilkaz, on Aug 6 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

Anyhow..I want to slow PD down. However, 3NT or 4♠ may be our best games here. I'll bid my 6 card ♠ suit and if PD bids 3NT I pass, if PD bids 4♠ I pass, if PD bids 4♣ I will raise to 5.

If P bids 3NT, I'm bidding 4♣. If he wanted to play in 3NT across a bust, he shoulda bid 3NT.

I should have an entry or two at least in clubs. Tough to believe that he can make 3NT without any entries to dummy.

The problem is that 2♦ doesn't show a bust, but I can see where quite a few hands that can make 3NT will also make 5♣, but not all off them. I trust PD to stop the two red suits and to run at least 6 ♣ tricks.

Too me again, a tough decision after 3NT since PD doesn't know we have have a near bust.

I fear 4♣ after 3NT show's more..maybe we can get lucky and find PD with
♠x,♥Axx,♦AKx,♣AKQJxx and claim our cold 6♣ even on a trump lead.

OK now I see why you prefer 4♣ after 3NT. I certainly do find it easier to bid when I can tell PD my approximate strength on the first call.

Note that if PD has 7♣ the 9 is likely an entry and if he has 6 they may split 22 again giving us an entry. You've helped me convince myself not to leave it in 3NT !

[mikeh]

A comprehensive answer to this problem requires some understanding of the 3♣ bid.

Most good players require more for 2♣ then 3♣ (or 3♦) than they do for 2♣ then a major. This makes sense because 5 minor is a lot further away, and less frequently makable, than 4 major.

Furthermore, many would just rebid 3N with a hand that takes 9 tricks by running a minor, and many would rebid 2N with a balanced hand, even with a 6 card minor.

If that is the case, then responder's hand is far more powerful than it appears. Even with a trump lead, we are almost certainly scoring 2 ruffs... or the ♦ suit will come into play, so if partner started with 9 tricks, he's making 11 or more.. and if he started with 10, he's probably making slam in clubs.

OTOH, if partner is the sort who opens 2♣ and rebids 3♣ with x KQx AKx AQJxxx (and I have seen lots of non-experts bid this way), then we may not even make any game... but I'd rather be in 5♣ than 3N.

Having said all that, the reality is that partner might hold 3 spades, and if he does, we should be in that suit. So bid 3♠ and pull 3N. I'd pull to 5♣, not 4♣... because I don't really want to make a slam move, which 4♣ would be. He has rights over 5♣ and, if he bids 6, I'd expect to make it.

[pclayton]

Its useful to play over 3C that 3D is a bust and asks for a 4 card major. If I played that here, I'd start with 3d and bid 4C over 3H or 3N, since spades probably won't be a good spot.

[han]

I agree with what mikeh wrote.

[DWM]

I play after
2♣ - 2♦
SUIT

the next suit up is a double negative. That being cannot promise 2 tricks if the suit bid was trumps. I would take the void as 1 trick, but there are no other tricks in your hand that do not require a lot of development.

Not quite as discriptive as Phil, but I would assume that P would want to bid a 4 card major anyway if he had one.

Saying that I have just re-read your post and saw you asked how to bid if no double negative in your system.

I would bid spades as P could have 4 spades and 6 clubs for his bidding so far.

I know this support with support, but I am sure there is something about dont hide a 6 card major as well.

I can see it being a problem when you have a slightly stronger hand and P has clubs and hearts as the auction could go along the lines of

2♣ - 2♦
3♣ - 3♠
4♥

Then it is hard to know when to explore slam and when to settle in 5♣

[vuroth]

neilkaz, on Aug 6 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

Once again I'll get on my soap box about how poor the response system to typical N. Am. 2♣ is.

Here you have no way to tell PD that you have a bust ..YUCK !! 

I agree.

I'm torn. There's a very good chance our best spot is 4♠, but I'm afraid that if I bid spades and partner declines, that showing clubs next, even jumping to 5, will give partner the impression that I'm stronger than I am.

A direct 5♣, on the other hand, should be my best bet at not getting partner overly excited.

At the table, I think I'd bid spades, but I can see things all going awry....

V

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦
 Pass  3♣    Pass  4♣
 Pass  4♥    Pass  5♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


Here's the full hand, East could have made things easier by opening.
Noone ventures a 2♠ bid here as south?

[blackshoe]

Heh. If EW are playing weak or mini NT, it should go 1NT-(P)-2H-. Then what happens? -(3NT)-P-(4S)?

[helene_t]

blackshoe, on Aug 8 2007, 06:12 AM, said:

Heh. If EW are playing weak or mini NT, it should go 1NT-(P)-2H-. Then what happens? -(3NT)-P-(4S)?

Yes. And North passes 4♠.

Btw some play two-under transfers in response to a 3N overcall of a 3-level preempt, here 4♦ for spades, so that overcaller can make a slam try with 4♥ without bypassing 4♠. Maybe that should apply here also.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Aug 7 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦
 Pass  3♣    Pass  4♣
 Pass  4♥    Pass  5♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


Here's the full hand, East could have made things easier by opening.
Noone ventures a 2♠ bid here as south?

You said, you have no agreements over 2C.
2D allows you to bid 2S over partners most
likely 2H response, afterall you are void in
hearts.

Some play, that 2H / 2S are weak, which certainly
makes some sense, but is non standard.

As it happens over 3S partner can bid 3NT, by
passing 3NT is always a tough decision.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Aug 7 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

Noone ventures a 2♠ bid here as south?

Is this a serious question?

If it is, the answer is no.

2S (unless otherwise agreed) shows a positive response. Most people play it as a good 5 card suit that contains 2 of the top 3 honors.

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Aug 8 2007, 06:16 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 7 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

Noone ventures a 2♠ bid here as south? 

Is this a serious question?

If it is, the answer is no.

2S (unless otherwise agreed) shows a positive response. Most people play it as a good 5 card suit that contains 2 of the top 3 honors.

I was actualy meaning a 2♠ opening.

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Aug 8 2007, 08:34 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Aug 8 2007, 06:16 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 7 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

Noone ventures a 2♠ bid here as south?  

Is this a serious question?

If it is, the answer is no.

2S (unless otherwise agreed) shows a positive response. Most people play it as a good 5 card suit that contains 2 of the top 3 honors.

I was actualy meaning a 2♠ opening.

Oh. I misread the question then.


The answer is still no, though.

[SoTired]

1. Opener should rebid 3N over 2D to show 25-27 HCP (I upgrade this hand).
2. Responder cannot bid a direct 2S, because that shows a suit with spade honors. Some play 2 of top 3. Others play at least the king.
3. Over 3C, now you can bid 3S. Since you did not bid it initially, partner will know you are missing spade honors.