[quote name='mikeh' date='Aug 21 2007, 10:49 AM']~~Darwin pointed out that the evidence then available (which evidence has expanded vastly since his day) suggested that humanity was a contingent accident: merely one twig on the bush of life... and that we were descended, not from apes, but from a common ancestor of the apes.
This revolution in our view of ourselves has been accepted far more slowly than the Copernican revolution, perhaps because it strikes closer to home in terms of removing our ability to claim special status for ourselves.[/quote]
is it possible that this 'revolution' has been accepted far more slowly (if at all) because it isn't true?
[quote]I suspect, and hope, that we are at the early stages of a third revolution: the unshackling of our minds from the constraints of organized religion.[/quote]
i find myself in a position i don't particularly like, that of defending a concept referred to as "organized religion" ... i also have a dislike of organized religion, but not for the same reasons as you... my dislike is based more on the fact that the underlying truth(s) of some religions are not held to be sacred... for example, the practitioners of both islam and christianity speak of their religions as peaceful... maybe that's how they are supposed to be, but history shows that when men get involved, peace is one of the first things to go...
[quote]As with the first two revolutions, the effect will, in the short term, be to further reduce our pretense that there is anything special or pre-ordained about being human. It seems that many people, including (yes) many intelligent people are terrified of the implications that no 'God' has any particular interest in any of us.
That is similar to the fear that prevents creationists from understanding the splendour of the darwinian approach to evolution.[/quote]
mike, do you think there is a fear that prevents atheists (purported - i have my own theories on the actual) from understanding the splendor of creation?
[quote] Atheism requires accepting that we are not special, other than in the very real sense that everything is special.[/quote]
yes... and a sovereign God teaches us that man is indeed special... atheists (and, i've heard, some angels) sometimes get angry with the concepts of God's sovereignty (what right does he have to OWN me?!?) and the specialness of man
[quote]Does this mean that atheists don't wonder (literally) about 'how' the universe came into being? Not for this atheist.... but the fact that I don't know the answer, the fact that I suspect that the answer may be literally incomprehensible to any human intelligence, does not drive me to postulate a 'God'. Certainly, it does nothing to suggest that there is any 'god' to whom any human can or should 'pray', let alone suggest that the heirarchical structures of organized religion have ANYTHING to do with my sense of wonder.[/quote]
some atheists do wonder, for the express purpose of creating reasons why God doesn't exist
[quote]Oh, I know that most religionists will deny that they are motivated by fear.... and most will believe it. I do not mean fear of a vengeful god, altho there is a lot of that in most holy books, but I mean a fear of facing reality unshielded by the illusion of meaning afforded by religion.[/quote]
i can't argue that even many christians are motivated by fear... but that isn't what christianity is about... we will always have a fear of God, i suspect... even those who are "mature" in their faith... mainly because they remember that "... the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ..." but forget that ".. perfect love casts out fear .." ... God is perfect love, Jesus asks us to love (perfectly, as he did), we try but we fail, hence we fear... but there is no need for fear
[quote name='hrothgar' date='Aug 21 2007, 12:08 PM'][quote name='BebopKid' date='Aug 21 2007, 07:13 PM'] [quote name='mikeh' date='Aug 21 2007, 10:49 AM'] Apart from the fact that belief based on such reasoning hardly seems genuine, the argument is based on fear. I recall, when reading it the first time, being troubled by the idea that God would punish someone merely for not believing in him, even if the person lived a morally perfect life. Nice god [/quote]
Let me ask you this.
Suppose I warn you that walking into a burning building with no protection will harm you. And I offer you a fire resistant suit.
Suppose you still walk through a burning building without the suit.
Did I punish you?
Are we in control of our outcomes?
Yes, because God allowed us to have free will.
He gave everyone a fire resistant suit. All you have to do is take the suit to avoid being burned. [/quote]
The countervailing argument is fairly simple:
No everyone gets offered a fire proof suit. Up until recently, the vast majority of people on this planet never heard about the fireproof suit and never had the opportunity for salvation.[/quote]
that isn't true, or at least it isn't what we (i) believe... God has given man (all men, at all times) evidence that he exists... he has also stated many times that any who seek him will find him... but man hides from the truth, man deceives himself... or so the story goes
[quote] Personally, I cant accept that a divine being who is willing to condemn enormous numbers of people through no fault of their own is worthy of my respect and/or admiration.[/quote]
bebop answered this, i believe... where do you get this idea of "no fault?" put it this way: if there is a sovereign God who created all things, and if this God gave you more than enough in the way of evidence to cause you to seek him, and if you deceive yourself about his existence, are you innocent?
[quote]Even if we restrict ourselves to the here and now: There are a LOT of different folks selling very different models of fireproof suits. (The only thing that any of them seem to agree upon is that theirs is the only suit that offers any real protection) There is nothing that we can use to distinguish between them, so, by and large nearly everyone goes shopping at the local outlet. Once again, I refuse to accept a system that is so terribly flawed.[/quote]
it's true, there are many people selling many things... and you have evidently examined them all and come to your own conclusions... btw, it isn't the case that there's nothing to distinguish them
[quote]In an earlier post you (beebop) made the following comment
[quote]As a Christian, my beliefs are things that are fact to me.[/quote]
As an agnostic, I get very worried about individuals (worse yet institutions) that are unable to distinguish between beliefs and facts.[/quote]
but what is a 'fact'? would you agree that it is a bit of knowledge? and what is knowledge? i know a man who has written books on the study of epistemology, books that have by and large been well received... he defines knowledge as 'true warranted belief' ... yes, he is a christian... and yes, he is brilliant... even his detractors give him that much
[quote name='Gerben42' date='Aug 21 2007, 03:33 PM']
[quote]God didn't create Sin.[/quote]
Assuming your god exists, he created man in a way that he knew man would sin. And then he punishes man for doing what he was designed to do.
So either
* your god should take a creation course
* your god is evil, setting us up
* your god does not exist
I will take door #3 thanks. Especially since if door #1 or door #2 is right, that's just too horrible too imagine.[/quote]
it's true that God created man knowing what man's choice(s) would be... it isn't true that man was designed to sin... taking door #3 is your choice, God gave you that right... but your premise is faulty, therefore your conclusions are questionable
[quote name='mikeh' date='Aug 21 2007, 06:43 PM'][quote name='BebopKid' date='Aug 21 2007, 06:10 PM'][quote name='Gerben42' date='Aug 21 2007, 03:33 PM'] Assuming your god exists, he created man in a way that he knew man would sin. And then he punishes man for doing what he was designed to do. [/quote]
God warned Man to obey the rules. Man didn't.
God gave man free will.
Man didn't have to choose the wrong path.
God didn't have to forgive Man and offer a way of salvation--especially one as easy as God has given us.
Praise God.[/quote]
It is impossible to reason with people who have surrendered their capacity for logical thought.[/quote]
that is beneath you... bebop has stated his beliefs logically, imo
[quote]Descartes said: I think, therefore I am.
God said: I am, therefore I am.
There are issues with Descartes logic, but it is certainly more valid than God's. However, I suspect that most true believers would see my version of God's pronouncement as literally true
[/quote]
yes, i see your version ("who do i say sent me?" asked moses ... "tell them I AM sent you" answered God) as true... i don't consider myself irrational or illogical, in fact quite the contrary, and i have no problem with the concept of God or faith
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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