[pclayton]

jmc, on Jan 17 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

If you bid 4C partner bids 4D. What do you bid now?

jmc

4♥.

[skjaeran]

Agree with the bidding this far.
Now I jump to 5♣, giving partner a fair description of my hand. He should be able to judge when to pass and when to raise to slam, unless my singleton heart is the key. However, I can't see any other reasonable bid that doesn't misstate my values.

[mike777]

jmc, on Jan 17 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

If you bid 4C partner bids 4D.  What do you bid now?

jmc

I knew this question was coming, sigh.

I hope 4d is rkc for clubs? That is why I bid this way.
4nt by opener would be cuebid for Diamonds and opener often has a void somewhere.

[han]

I like that, opener hasn't blackwooded yet so must have a void.

[jdonn]

The examples hands for partner are getting silly. Did he lose his 3NT card or what?

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jan 17 2008, 03:48 PM, said:

The examples hands for partner are getting silly. Did he lose his 3NT card or what?

x Axx AKxx AQxxx is a 3N call?

[jmc]

My concern was what partner was showing after 1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5c.

I wasn't sure if this a minimum, nothing to cuebid, or something else. My hand was:

Ax, A, K10xx, AQxxxx.

I was concerned about whether partner had either black king. I thought he could have something like: QJxx, xxx, Qxx, Jxx where slam was not so good. Admitedly this hand probably doesn't bid 3C. Even if p has the diamond A and neither black king its not a terrible slam.

I cue bid 3H because I thought 3D would look like more shape. I was hoping to hear partner cue bid the King of spades.

Does everyone agree with Jdonn's description of the 5C (1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5C) jump?

jmc

[mike777]

jmc, on Jan 18 2008, 03:53 AM, said:

My concern was what partner was showing after 1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5c.

I wasn't sure if this a minimum, nothing to cuebid, or something else.  My hand was:

Ax, A, K10xx, AQxxxx.

I was concerned about whether partner had either black king.  I thought he could have something like: QJxx, xxx, Qxx, Jxx where slam was not so good.  Admitedly this hand probably doesn't bid 3C.  Even if p has the diamond A and neither black king its not a terrible slam. 

I cue bid 3H because I thought 3D would look like more shape.  I was hoping to hear partner cue bid the King of spades.

Does everyone agree with Jdonn's description of the 5C (1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5C) jump? 

jmc

no
i bid 4c...forward going..but deny ace of spades...i have 10+ hcp...your bid
4d is rkc

yes yes ...6c may go down.....

[655321]

jmc, on Jan 18 2008, 03:53 AM, said:

Does everyone agree with Jdonn's description of the 5C (1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5C) jump? 

jmc

To me, this sequence shows quite a weak hand, with 4 or 5 clubs.
So (to me), the actual hand is much too good to bid this way.

[mike777]

655321, on Jan 18 2008, 04:11 AM, said:

jmc, on Jan 18 2008, 03:53 AM, said:

Does everyone agree with Jdonn's description of the 5C (1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5C) jump? 

jmc

To me, this sequence shows quite a weak hand, with 4 or 5 clubs.
So (to me), the actual hand is much too good to bid this way.

I think we all agree...responder does not have a weak hand.

If so....ignore all........

[pclayton]

jmc, on Jan 18 2008, 12:53 AM, said:

Does everyone agree with Jdonn's description of the 5C (1c-1s-2d-3c-3h-5C) jump?

Assuming you are playing some form of Lebensohl, 3♣ should be game forcing. Depending on the rest of your philosophy, 5♣ is either some sort of fast arrival call, or picture jump. A picture jump should deny an outside A / K, or s/v.

Personally, I think the stiff heart, the ♦Q and the long clubs are enough reasons why this isn't a 5♣ call, but the ♥x is the biggest.

So, no I don't agree this is a 5♣ call.

[whereagles]

I think 5♣ should DENY a heart singleton... that feature is too important to be jumped over.

[jdonn]

Bidding 4♣ then 5♣ is certainly not an improvement over 5♣ now, that could be a much worse hand for slam that wasn't suited for 3NT, like Jxxx xx Qxx AJxx. If someone is going to bid 4♣ intending to cuebid 4♥ next round then ok, but there are certainly better hands than this which want to make that cuebid but can't quite force to slam. It's not enough to say "If I bid 5♣ now partner could have this and this hand which will pass but make slam" unless you also say "Would better hands or completely different types of hands also bid this way, leaving partner with a hard decision?"

The main point about 5♣ is that it shows long trumps without outside controls. I could certainly think of worse descriptions. Everyone is so focused on the heart control for slam without realizing that often it's the good trumps that are key. The acual hand of Ax A KTxx AQxxxx is a clear slam bid over 5♣, and also a hand where hearing the heart cuebid is of very little help.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jan 18 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

The acual hand of Ax A KTxx AQxxxx is a clear slam bid over 5♣, and also a hand where hearing the heart cuebid is of very little help.

Its also moves toward slam after 4♣, so I don't see how this is pertinent. OTOH, my example hand of x Axx AKxx AQxxx still has a problem over 5♣.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Jan 18 2008, 06:34 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 18 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

The acual hand of Ax A KTxx AQxxxx is a clear slam bid over 5♣, and also a hand where hearing the heart cuebid is of very little help.

Its also moves toward slam after 4♣, so I don't see how this is pertinent. OTOH, my example hand of x Axx AKxx AQxxx still has a problem over 5♣.

As for the actual hand, moving toward slam is not the same as bidding it. Opener will cuebid 4♠, and then if you are bidding slam on responder's hand, well done.

Meanwhile on your example opener will probably cuebid 4♦ and hear 4♥ in response, and then what? Which player is bidding slam with their no-extras, having already shown interest with a cuebid? Not to mention opener is going to be very worried about the quality of the trump suit since he has no idea of the length opposite. I would say not impossible, but not easy.

But if responder jumps to 5♣ then yes opener should bid slam. Move a diamond to hearts to eliminate that precious stiff heart Kxxx xx Qx KJxxx and it's a claimer for slam, and that includes a wasted K and J (see how valuable telling partner about the trump length was?) Or keep the original shape but get rid of the diamond queen. These controls are EXACTLY what the doctor ordered over the 5♣ bid.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jan 18 2008, 10:54 PM, said:

The main point about 5♣ is that it shows long trumps without outside controls.

yeah, but you do have the heart stiff in this particular hand. that's the pt.

[junyi_zhu]

whereagles, on Jan 17 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

You don't splinter on pard's 5-card suit. At least you shouldn't, because it's statistically unlikely for it to be of interest.

Anyway, I'd bid 4NT if pard takes that as RKCB for clubs. If there's a risk of mix-up, 4♣.

Why is that? If you have a singleton or void facing partner's Axxxx or xxxxx, it's great.

[whereagles]

junyi_zhu, on Jan 21 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Why is that? If you have a singleton or void facing partner's Axxxx or xxxxx, it's great.

I've already said why: because it's statistically unlikely for that to happen. I've only came across it once in my life (something like 10 000-20 000 boards played ).

[junyi_zhu]

whereagles, on Jan 22 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Jan 21 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Why is that? If you have a singleton or void facing partner's Axxxx or xxxxx, it's great.

I've already said why: because it's statistically unlikely for that to happen. I've only came across it once in my life (something like 10 000-20 000 boards played ).

Oh， well, it's still not very rare. Actually with that splinter weapon available, a lot of good low HCP slams can be bid and it's actually very high to make a natural jump raise when a simple raise is already gf, it simply preempts a lot of cue bidding space.