[mr1303]

Scoring: IMP

---

East deals and opens 2S, a weak 2. You decide to pass (agree?) and partner reopens with 3C.

Not really fancying anything to flash, you settle for a mundane 3NT (agree?)

Partner now comes back to you with 4C. What now?

[helene_t]

Shoot partner, but first let him play 5♣.

[whereagles]

hum.. My guess is pard is pulling 3NT because he's got a weak hand and broken clubs, e.g. he has something like

--
Axx
QJx
QT9xxxx

I'm gonna pass his 4♣. If I know he's not the sort of person to balance 3♣ on this, I'll raise to 5♣.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Jan 19 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

I'd give him 4D, slam is definitely in play.

Do you take 4♣ as forcing or non-forcing? (I would think non-forcing, just making sure though...)

[the hog]

Agree with pass. My initial thought was a 2NT overcall, but from where are your tricks coming. I am now bidding 4D, hoping to hear 4H. Definitely not playing less than 5C and looking for 6.

[Elianna]

The_Hog, on Jan 19 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

I would have overcalled 1NT.

BBO won't let you overcall 1NT.

[highhighhi]

the way that i was taught is that once you or your partner bids game, all subsequent bids are forcing until you're back into game.

i would bid 4♦ first.

[Double !]

helene_t, on Jan 19 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

Shoot partner.

I believe this to be a good idea just on general principals. There have been far too few bridge-related murders lately! (Oh, where is Don Von Elsner when we need him the most?!) And, if investigators ask who the culprit is, as is customary and accepted practice in Bridge, blame partner (none of this apportion the blame debate! Be definitive!)


It sounds like P has a long broken club suit with shape and is concerned about entries at NT. 4♦ seems like a reasonable slam try: gives partner the chance to Q 4♥. The idea that any bid past game commits the partnership until another plausible game is bid seems to make sense.

Questions: 1) what would 4NT after P's 4♣ mean? & 2) what does 4NT by the 3NT bidder mean after having first Q-bidding 4♦ over 4♣ and getting a response? (hopefully something other than pass) RKC for clubs, or something else?

DHL

[helene_t]

4N by advancer is clearly to play.

4N by overcaller is less clear to me.

[Codo]

If pd took me to 4 Club because he was too weak for 3 NT, I will shoot him too.

He told us already that his suit was not solid, he did not bid 3 ♠.

And lets say he has the hand whereagles mentioned: There is no way to beat 3 NT, so why should he pull?


So 4 Diamond now is clear cut for me.

Maybe pd bid 4 Club on x, AKx, xx, AQJxxxx.

Have fun in 4 Club +3.

[whereagles]

Codo, on Jan 21 2008, 09:30 AM, said:

1. If pd took me to 4 Club because he was too weak for 3 NT, I will shoot him too.

2. And lets say he has the hand whereagles mentioned: There is no way to beat 3NT, so why should he pull?

1. You'd have to shoot me from behind. Face-to-face, you'll never make it Joke aside, there are technical reasons why pard can, and in some cases should, pull 3NT to 4♣ because he's weak. The reason is we passed 2♠ and therefore our hand usually does not have more than 16-17 hcp. Typically, when 2nd seat passes and then bids 3NT, he has a 13-14 hand with spade stop. If balancer has a broken 7 club suit, it is possible that he wants to pull 3NT if he judges his clubs might not run.

Unless you have a specific agreement that 3NT is not "pullable", I think 4♣ can be a WEAK bid, not a strong one.

2. Ok, ok. Maybe this isn't a good example. Just tweak a bit the hand then.

[junyi_zhu]

mr1303, on Jan 19 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

East deals and opens 2S, a weak 2. You decide to pass (agree?) and partner reopens with 3C.

Not really fancying anything to flash, you settle for a mundane 3NT (agree?)

Partner now comes back to you with 4C. What now?

4C should be bid based on a very good hand, so this hand is very slamish. There is no point to bid 3C then pull partner's 3NT with a weak hand with long and weak clubs. In that case, you shouldn't balance 3C.

[SoTired]

mr1303, on Jan 19 2008, 01:52 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

East deals and opens 2S, a weak 2. You decide to pass (agree?) and partner reopens with 3C.

Not really fancying anything to flash, you settle for a mundane 3NT (agree?)

Partner now comes back to you with 4C. What now?

4C cannot be non-forcing. Bid does not exist. 4C must be too strong to pass 3N. So advancer bids 4D, expecting to end up in at least 6C.

I would probably bid 2N initially because I hate backing into auctions, but I don't think passers are "wrong".

4N over 4C is to play. 4N over advancer's 4D is RKC.

Since I have the ♣K, partner's suit is at least a little broken, but other than that, overcaller's suit quality is unknown.

[whereagles]

SoTired, on Jan 22 2008, 09:31 AM, said:

4C cannot be non-forcing. Bid does not exist. 4C must be too strong to pass 3N.

Look, if you define

(2♠) p (p) 3♣

as a potentially heavy hand, say 17-18 as max, then what you say might make sense. But if you put a limit of, say 14-15, to the 3♣ bid (with more, dbl + bid clubs), then things might not be so clear.

[SoTired]

whereagles, on Jan 22 2008, 05:59 AM, said:

SoTired, on Jan 22 2008, 09:31 AM, said:

4C cannot be non-forcing. Bid does not exist. 4C must be too strong to pass 3N.

Look, if you define

(2♠) p (p) 3♣

as a potentially heavy hand, say 17-18 as max, then what you say might make sense. But if you put a limit of, say 14-15, to the 3♣ bid (with more, dbl + bid clubs), then things might not be so clear.

assuming you don't bid 3C on complete garbage, what kind of hand would want to pull 3N to 4C?

3C is roughly 10-17 or so (I don't understand why you limit it to 14-15)

3N'er is roughly, what? 10-15 or so (with more and spade stopper, would surely bid over 2S)

So if 3C is based on 10HCP and a broken suit, how do you know that 3N is not based on 15 HCP and filling honors? So it makes no sense to pull. If 3N is based on 15 HCP with no club honors, 4C is not going to do much better. Might as well go for the game bonus and level lower. This is not like after a 1N opener, responder is sitting with C-Q10xxxx and out and should pull 1N to 3C. Overcaller has some values for the 3C bid.

Therefore, 4C has to be forcing with slam interest.

[whereagles]

SoTired, on Jan 22 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

(...) Therefore, 4C has to be forcing with slam interest.

We're repeating ourselves. If you balance 10-17, then it makes sense that 4♣ is a strong bid. If you balance 8-15 (as I do), then it makes sense to play 4♣ as a WEAK bid.

[mr1303]

Anyway, partner intended 4C as I have a pile of rubbish. I took it as slammish, and had the following auction:

2S P P 3C
P 3NT P 4C
P 4D P 4H
P 4S P 5C
P 6C

I forget how many off it went, but partner had the following:

S x
H Jxxxx
D x
C AJxxxx

[han]

I think that partner should have bid 4H instead of 4C. This shows a limited hand with 5-6 since leaping Michaels wasn't used. Trying to stop in 4C seems like a narrow target.

[mikeh]

mr1303, on Jan 22 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

Anyway, partner intended 4C as I have a pile of rubbish. I took it as slammish, and had the following auction:

2S P P 3C
P 3NT P 4C
P 4D P 4H
P 4S P 5C
P 6C

I forget how many off it went, but partner had the following:

S x
H Jxxxx
D x
C AJxxxx

Goes to show why one shouldn't ever play 4♣ as weak. 3N had reasonable chances on this hand: 3-2 clubs with the Q onside and it is cold (of course, when the Q♣ is offside, it may be bloody, but it can hardly be worse than 6♣ )

BTW, wild horses couldn't get me to balance with that hand. But if I were asked to fill in for the incurable optimist who thought that 3♣ opposite a partner known to be long in spades was correct, I surely wouldn't revert to my (customary) pessimism and assume both that I had f**ked up and that partner would incorrectly read my 4♣ as weakness