[1eyedjack]

gwnn, on Apr 13 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Apr 13 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

I disagree with this.  Give opener the Diamond Queen instead of the Spade King-Jack and the slam is very attractive on two fewer points.

except opps will take the first 5 tricks in spades.

only if you are in the wrong slam. I do not advocate playing this in NT. I expect that the defence could take even more if we elect to play in Spades as trumps. But that is hardly an argument for suggesting that the hand is unworthy of a slam try.

[gwnn]

unknown phantom poster said:

we certainly have a fit for a minor (unless partner thinks it's a good idea to open 1NT with 5-4 in the majors) and slam in a minor could be very laydown, but if we have no gadgets to investigate that important possibility, 3NT is a much better idea than a quantitative raise to 4NT which apparently partner didn't even understand.

Yes, I suppose his next paragraph
"look at the gorgeous hand partner had, he could hardly have had any more and slam is very hopeless."

should have read

"look at the gorgeous hand partner had, he could hardly have had any more and 6NT is ostensibly hopeless, therefore trying for 6NT in case partner has a maximum is wrong."

[Mbodell]

Did 6NT make? I'd think you'd make as often as not against standard non-world class defenders.

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1NT   Pass  4NT
 Pass  5♥    Pass  6NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

H4 H3 HJ HA
D6 D3 DA D4
D2 D9 DT DJ
SA SQ S2 S3


5/64 pairs who played this board bid and made slam, 4 in nt, 2 in ♣
22/64 didnt bid it but made 6

Sorry, but I hate beng told to bid 3nt with this hand

[jdonn]

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

Sorry, but I hate beng told to bid 3nt with this hand 

The answer isn't bid 3NT on this hand. The answer is have some way(s) to show the minors when partner opens 1NT

6NT is cold on any lead and defense on the actual layout hehe.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

West North East South

- 1NT Pass 4NT
Pass 5♥ Pass 6NT
Pass Pass Pass

was 4NT keycard?

[jillybean]

matmat, on Apr 13 2008, 02:39 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

West  North East  South

-    1NT  Pass  4NT
Pass  5♥    Pass  6NT
Pass  Pass  Pass

was 4NT keycard?

No, it should be Q4nt

[kenrexford]

As to the second hand.

In assessing the possibility of a slam opposite a strong 1NT opening, a good rule of thumb I use is whether I have a six-loser hand. Partner having five covers is not that uncommon.

Actually, I visualize, but the point is the same. Take Responder's hand and assess the perfect hand to have a laydown grand slam. ♠A, ♥A, ♦KQJ, ♣AQ. That's 20 HCP. Subtract away an Ace, and you get 16, within the range. So, a slam is possible. [Edited.]

They key is to have methods to seek this. A fairly normal scheme is to have some call, followed by 3M, show 5-5 minors identifying a stiff in a major. If, for instance, 2♠...3♠ showed this hand, then with five of the three missing Aces, one missing King, and two missing Queens, will likely pursue or cooperate in the slam for you in some manner. [Edited.]

The problem with this hand is the fact that the stiff spade is the Queen. After showing the stiff and both minors, partner may opt against 3NT because of mis-perceived spade weakness. That could be bad. (In contrast, make the spade Queen a deuce and we are equally in slam territory, BTW.)

This concern may induce a judgment-based decision to opt 3NT on this hand, or perhaps some call that shows both minors but NT tolerance (maybe 2♠...3NT?). Without that stupid stiff Queen, there is no problem. With it, options arise.

I think, though, that this may call for showing the shape and then, if partner bids 3NT, a somewhat strange move of raising to 4NT. Normally, Responder would not do this. If strong enough to not pass 3NT, Responder would presumably keep the auction low. 4NT seems to be quantitative, IMO, with a stiff spade honor. Never saw it before, but it makes sense.

That said, I'd want one more card -- the diamond Jack or higher -- for that call. The diamond suit is too tenuous for that option, IMO.

So, I'd expect something like 1N-2♠-2N-3♠-3N at my table.

[jillybean]

I didnt know 1n:2x 2y:3M showed 5/5 minors & stiffM
1n:2♣
2any:3♦

should be forcing, slammish I think, but I wouldnt use it without discussion

[gwnn]

I think the question here is quite simple.

Is this hand good enough for 6NT opposite a 17 hcp balanced hand or a good 16 hcp one?


(very good 17 counts are possibly not even in 1NT)

(this is even coupled with the fact that partner may think 4NT is blackwood and then we basically forced our partnership to the 6 level without involving partner at all. I know nothing about partner but I have seen the logic (of which I disapprove) "ugh maybe this is blackwood so I better answer, because like this I don't really risk much, after all I could have had a jack more".)

apparently everyone thinks the answer to the italicized question is no.

[jillybean]

1eyedjack, on Apr 13 2008, 10:36 AM, said:

gwnn, on Apr 13 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

look at the gorgeous hand partner had, he could hardly have had any more and slam is very hopeless.

I disagree with this. Give opener the Diamond Queen instead of the Spade King-Jack and the slam is very attractive on two fewer points.

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

POints schmoints  

What is hopeless about this hand?  You only have 1 ♠ loser

I think it hardly fair to say that your hand has improved to the point of a slam try on the grounds of the one Spade loser, when you have committed to playing in NT and the only reason you can justify an evaluation of one Spade loser is the expectation of a ruff.

I should have said, you should only lose 1♠ double dummy!

[jillybean]

My question was never Is this hand good enough for 6NT opposite a 17 hcp balanced hand or a good 16 hcp one?

I wanted to know HOW you would investigate slam, any bunny can find 3nt

[jdonn]

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

My question was never Is this hand good enough for 6NT opposite a 17 hcp balanced hand or a good 16 hcp one?

I wanted to know HOW you would investigate slam, any bunny can find 3nt

You have no methods, and are (reasonably) too scared to try the only way that might be forcing with diamonds due to fear of a misunderstanding. Asking how to investigate slam under those circumstances is like asking how to write a poem when you don't know any words in the language.

[Winstonm]

One of the better-known methods is in 4-suit transfers to use the jumps to 3M as a singleton in that major and 1345(54) shape. On the hand shown that would have worked well if partner had produced:

Jxxx
Axx
KQ
AQxx

But the heart of this matter is what occured on the actual board - with no way to find the fit, the only proper thing to do is make a normal bid, ergo, 3NT.

I believe it was S.J. Simon who wrote in "Why You Lose At Bridge" that the winning player looks for the best result possible, not the best possible result.

That advise applies here.

[han]

jdonn, on Apr 13 2008, 06:18 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

My question was never Is this hand good enough for 6NT opposite a 17 hcp balanced hand or a good 16 hcp one?

I wanted to know HOW you would investigate slam, any bunny can find 3nt

You have no methods, and are (reasonably) too scared to try the only way that might be forcing with diamonds due to fear of a misunderstanding. Asking how to investigate slam under those circumstances is like asking how to write a poem when you don't know any words in the language.

Or as they say in the Netherlands, a toothless farmer shouldn't eat raw cabbage.

[jdonn]

han, on Apr 13 2008, 10:18 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 13 2008, 06:18 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

My question was never Is this hand good enough for 6NT opposite a 17 hcp balanced hand or a good 16 hcp one?

I wanted to know HOW you would investigate slam, any bunny can find 3nt

You have no methods, and are (reasonably) too scared to try the only way that might be forcing with diamonds due to fear of a misunderstanding. Asking how to investigate slam under those circumstances is like asking how to write a poem when you don't know any words in the language.

Or as they say in the Netherlands, a toothless farmer shouldn't eat raw cabbage.

I can't believe it. I actually understand that one!

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

gwnn, on Apr 13 2008, 08:57 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 13 2008, 08:25 AM, said:

Quote

Hand2 I thought was worth a slam try

Why?

My minors look like a great source of tricks

not in nt...

why not? Partner has shown a balanced hand, we will have a fit in one or both minors and should be able to run the suit.
Im obviously out to lunch here but to me this looks too good to sign off in 3

Hi,

this is only true, if partner has more than 5 cards in the minors,
which is a reasonable bet but it is not certain.
Because if opener does only have 5 cards in the minors, you need
a 3-3 break to get your suit running.

Additionally, one has to understand that a 5-3 fit is ok (*), but it is
not a dream fit, if you end up playing for 11 tricks, and that
11 tricks are a long way to go.

The hand has slam potential, if opener does not have a
lot of wastage in hearts and spades.

(*) And you may not even have a 5-3 fit, depending on how likely
you are to open a off shape NT, I seem to recall, that you quite often
opened 1 NT with a singleton, at least in the past.
..............................................................................
Regarding methods:
You could play a 2S response as a bid asking, which asks
opener, if he has min or max, a 2NT answer would show
min, a 3C answer shows max.
A hand, which bids 2S could also be weak hand with a long
minor, intending to pass the 3C answer or correct the answer
to the long minor.
=> This would free up the 2NT bid and allow you to use for
something else, e.g. you could use it, to show a weak or
strong hand with 5-5 in the minors.
This would also free up the 4NT response and allow you to
use it for something else.

Please keep in mind, that this is is only one possiblity, and that
this is certainly not part of SAYC or standard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cascade]

jillybean2, on Apr 14 2008, 03:20 AM, said:

Hand2 I thought was worth a slam try, we had no special agreements over 1nt.

If I am making a slam try I want to be bidding my minors.

There are schemes to show both minors - mostly non-standard and/or 4-suit transfers (some might consider those standard).

Otherwise I will just make a forcing bid in diamonds and the bid clubs.

1NT 2♣
any 3♦ natural and forcing will do as a start
any* 4♣ * except a raise
...