[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ Q ♥ K3 ♦ A8752 ♣ KJ965

West North East South

- 1NT Pass ?

What methods do you have to investigate slam here?

Playing sayc
1n:2♣
2x:3minor shows slam interest with 5+card suit

How would the auction continue?
3nt no slam interest
3M cue
4nt rkc for the minor?

[Winstonm]

Much better question, Jilly. Will get you the answers you seek, I believe.
As I mentioned on the other thread, I use 4-suit transfers and thus 3H/3S are used to show 1354(45) pattern in a game-forcing hand. The key is to find little waste opposite your singleton for 11 and 12 trick contracts, and to find strong waste for 3N.

OOPS. Didn't notice you posted 1255 shape.

I would bid a 4-suit transfer 3D, showing game forcing 5/5 minors.

Playing SAYC, I would still have to have 2S as Minor Suit Stayman, and that is what I would use.

[Mbodell]

jillybean2, on Apr 13 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ Q ♥ K3 ♦ A8752 ♣ KJ965

West North East South

- 1NT Pass ?

What methods do you have to investigate slam here?

I have two gadgets I can use depending on if I'm interested in what is the best game and/or what is the best slam. If I'm concerned about spades for 3nt I can bid 1NT-3♥ a splinter in spades. Partner can bid 3♠ with a maximum and no wastage in spades and now 6m seems very likely and easy to find. But with the stiff ♠Q and both minors I think I'd use 1NT-2NT-3♣-3♦ to show game forcing minors at least 54 and then let us explore from there.

[kenrexford]

If playing SAYC, there is not bid for a minor two-suiter. 2♠ is a relay to 3♣ to pass or correct to 3♦. Nothing more is said about this sequence.

However, a logical next bid in that structure is for three of a major after 2♠ to show shortness and both minors. I have no idea what SAYC calls for, though.

If you opt 2♣ and then one of the minors, you apparently must guess which minor, or guess to bid diamonds first then 4♣. But, again, SAYC does not seem to cover any follow-up sequences. Heck -- 4♣ later might be Gerber, in wghich case you apparently must bid 3♣ and then 4♦, instead.

This is one of those situations where, in my best assessment, SAYC does not do the trick. You simply cannot effectively bid hands like this with SAYC and must guess. Be thankful when playing better agreements and hands like this come up.

That's the whole point to better agreements. Sometimes, there is no solution using old standard. That's why people make agreements -- to improve their bidding in areas where standard fails.

[cherdano]

I can only answer the first part of that question, I don't know how to bid this hand in SAYC.

It is quite common to play 3♦ as 5-5 in the minors, GF. Over that opener would usually (unless his hand is very minor suit oriented) ask for shortness with 3♥, and responder would bid 3N (short spades, mild slam interest).

[kenrexford]

There are many ways that you could handle minor two-suiters.

One way, as suggested, is for 3♦ to show 5-5 in the minors and GF (typically with 3♣ being 5-5 weak). 3♥ after 3♦ could ask for shortness, as mentioned.

A way from the past (have not seen this in years) is for 1NT-P-2NT to show a minor two-suiter (called "conot" in the day), asking Opener to pick a minor. Responder will pass with a weak hand or bid shortness with a GF hand. That was a workable idea, something I used way back when.

Another way is to start with 2♠, whether Minor Stayman or a transfer (three-way or four-way), and then bid 3M as a shortness bid.

A common and mentioned permutation to cover 3145/54 or 1345/54 is to have a leap to 3M ditrectly (1NT-P-3M) show the stiff (or the fragment) and this pattern. This is occasionally used with 3♣ as Puppet and 3♦ as Invit+ with both majors (5-5).

I like a permutation beyond this. 2♠ is MSS, followed by 3M as the 5-5 holdings. The MSS handles weak minors (2♠, then 3♣ if needed). 2NT is a relay, with weak clubs or diamonds expected, but 2NT...3M shows 2344/3244 (bidding the shortness, again) and quantitative. 2NT...3NT shows 2245, 2♠...3NT 2254, both quantitative (4NT is stronger, same pattern). 6-4 minor two=suiters start with 2♠(♦ focus) or 2NT(♣ focus), followed by 4♣(♥) or 4♦(♠) to indicate tje short major suit.

You could even get more complicated, if you want.

The idea is to agree on something to handle minor two-suiters, a good idea.

[sceptic]

playing sayc, could you not use 1NT - 4 spades to show a 5/5 minor hand (game going) and 1NT - 5 clubs and a 5/5 minor hand and with possible slam potential (i.e) bid six with max points as these two bids (I think) have no meaning in sayc

takes away the ability to play in 3NT (I know)

or use the expert methods 1NT 3 clubs to show 5/5 minors 1NT 3 D to show Game going 5/5 minor split and the sunsequent 3H + 3S to show major shortage and 5/4 minor splits

[han]

I also like 3D as 5-5 in the minors GF.

I looked up the possible meanings of "thus" and still don't understand Winston's post. Is it a puzzle?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

see my response in the original thread.
http://forums.bridge...pic=24941&st=30

With the methods you outlined, I would not
really signal slam interest, .... especially, if
partner showed up with a 4 card mayor suit,
because now the chances that the hands fit
is low.

"Points Schmoints" sounds nice, but even Bergen
would agree, that if the hands dont fit, you need
high card power to compensate, and the partnership
has at most 30HCP between them, and my Queen
of spades, and partially my king of hearts dont pull
their full weight.
Move those two cards to the minors, and I will join
the slam train.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

kenrexford, on Apr 13 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

This is one of those situations where, in my best assessment, SAYC does not do the trick. You simply cannot effectively bid hands like this with SAYC and must guess. Be thankful when playing better agreements and hands like this come up.

Well, it's not Yellow Card, but two under transfers are great for this.

1NT 2♠
3♣ 3♦

2♠ = Transfer to clubs
3♣ = No super-accept of clubs.
3♦ = GF both minors.

[Winstonm]

han, on Apr 13 2008, 10:23 PM, said:

I looked up the possible meanings of "thus" and still don't understand Winston's post. Is it a puzzle?

Verily I thus sayeth: Obviously not; only puzzling.

[Cascade]

We play

2♠ shows both minors and then a subsequent 3♠ bid would show the spade shortage.

1NT 2♠
2NT = equal preference
3♣/♦ = preference

... 3♠ spade shortage and let opener judge what to do.

[kgr]

I play:
1NT-2♣ (relay to 2♦)
2♦-3NT
5/5 minors slem interest, but can be passed.
1NT-4♣
5/5 minors slem interest, GF.

[Echognome]

There's loads of different methods. I play that 2♠ is a variety of hands, but basically a GF with one or both minors, but 2NT is forced (rather than preference given) and then 3M is shortness with both minors.