BBO Discussion Forums: European Team championships - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 6 Pages +
  • « First
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

European Team championships Surprising lineups

Poll: Who is going to win? (104 member(s) have cast votes)

Who is going to win?

  1. France (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Iceland (1 votes [0.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.96%

  3. Ireland (4 votes [3.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  4. Italy (44 votes [42.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.31%

  5. Netherlands (12 votes [11.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.54%

  6. Norway (17 votes [16.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.35%

  7. Poland (8 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  8. Russia (3 votes [2.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.88%

  9. Sweden (9 votes [8.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.65%

  10. none of the above (6 votes [5.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.77%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#101 User is offline   NickRW 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Joined: 2008-April-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sussex, England

Posted 2008-June-20, 18:48

USViking, on Jun 20 2008, 11:28 PM, said:

Something that I found suprising, make that
astonishing, was that undo is permitted not only
on bidding but on play. I had always thought
that if a card hit the table then it could not be
taken back. I think it should be so: if you make
a mistake you should pay for it.

Maybe I am missing something, but I see no
difference between undoing bid and play in bridge
and undoing a home run pitch in baseball.

What you're probably missing is that the bids and plays are entered by an operator. A lot of the undos are as a result of the operator making a mistake in copying what actually happened at the table.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
0

#102 User is offline   paulg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,235
  • Joined: 2003-April-26
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edinburgh

Posted 2008-June-21, 02:00

NickRW, on Jun 21 2008, 12:48 AM, said:

USViking, on Jun 20 2008, 11:28 PM, said:

Something that I found suprising, make that
astonishing, was that undo is permitted not only
on bidding but on play. I had always thought
that if a card hit the table then it could not be
taken back. I think it should be so: if you make
a mistake you should pay for it.

Maybe I am missing something, but I see no
difference between undoing bid and play in bridge
and undoing a home run pitch in baseball.

What you're probably missing is that the bids and plays are entered by an operator. A lot of the undos are as a result of the operator making a mistake in copying what actually happened at the table.

Which is very easy to do, especially with the Italians who tend to show their cards for a microsecond, then claim and everyone puts their cards away.

Also it is warm here so sticky keys on the laptops are troublesome.

p
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
0

#103 User is offline   glen 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,637
  • Joined: 2003-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada
  • Interests:Military history, WW II wargames

Posted 2008-June-23, 03:52

Gerben42, on May 9 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

...ITALY?

Angelini - Bocchi - Duboin -  Lauria -  Sementa -  Versace

What the... Benching the best pair B)
...

Sementa-Angelini in Pau - Butler of -.69 IMPs before being benched. Fantoni-Nunes Butler in Shanghai +.84 (1st) in the round robin

Sources:
Pau: After 19 Butler (see just after Pizza of San Marino)

Shanghai Bulletin 9 (see page 18)

Edit: Sementa-Angelini now unbenched to play against Iceland
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
0

#104 User is offline   Gerben42 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,577
  • Joined: 2005-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erlangen, Germany
  • Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
    Nuclear power

Posted 2008-June-23, 04:32

Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength...

BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60
WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60
BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
My Bridge Systems Page

BC Kultcamp Rieneck
0

#105 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2008-June-23, 05:14

Gerben42, on Jun 23 2008, 05:32 AM, said:

Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength...

BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60
WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60
BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53

They may have played against different opponents, butler only says so much.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#106 User is offline   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,724
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2008-June-23, 05:51

glen, on Jun 23 2008, 12:52 PM, said:

Gerben42, on May 9 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

...ITALY?

Angelini - Bocchi - Duboin -  Lauria -  Sementa -  Versace

What the... Benching the best pair :(
...

Sementa-Angelini in Pau - Butler of -.69 IMPs before being benched. Fantoni-Nunes Butler in Shanghai +.84 (1st) in the round robin

Sources:
Pau: After 19 Butler (see just after Pizza of San Marino)

Sorry, this is just TOO funny...
Especially after reading comments about sponsors
Alderaan delenda est
0

#107 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2008-June-24, 03:05

What on earth is Germany doing on top?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#108 User is offline   Gerben42 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,577
  • Joined: 2005-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erlangen, Germany
  • Interests:Astronomy, Mathematics
    Nuclear power

Posted 2008-June-24, 04:26

Quote

What on earth is Germany doing on top?


Playing well, I guess :)

They have become really dangerous. After all they got 1st and 3rd in the last two Champion's Trophies.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
My Bridge Systems Page

BC Kultcamp Rieneck
0

#109 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2008-June-24, 08:06

Rumors here in Germany say that they are much better if the tournement is just for a weekend like the Champions Cup and worse in a long event.
We will wait and see and hope. :rolleyes:
Kind Regards

Roland

Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#110 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-June-24, 12:43

han, on Jun 23 2008, 06:14 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Jun 23 2008, 05:32 AM, said:

Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength...

BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60
WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60
BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53

They may have played against different opponents, butler only says so much.

Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler.
0

#111 User is offline   Halo 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 2006-June-08

Posted 2008-June-24, 13:27

I'm not that keen on Butler, but players in the same team play the same opposing teams, I guess.
0

#112 User is offline   glen 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,637
  • Joined: 2003-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada
  • Interests:Military history, WW II wargames

Posted 2008-June-24, 16:47

Jlall, on Jun 24 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler.

and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then?
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
0

#113 User is offline   TimG 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,972
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, USA

Posted 2008-June-24, 16:53

glen, on Jun 24 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 24 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler.

and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then?

Who says you have to put your faith in any "stat by pair"?
0

#114 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-June-24, 17:04

glen, on Jun 24 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 24 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler.

and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then?

I think trying to use stats for things they cannot be used for is stupid. If you were to say to me:

One pair had a butler of +1, the other of -1, over hundreds of boards. I would say it is safe to draw the conclusion that the +1 pair is playing better than the -1 pair.

If you were to say to me 3 pairs had butlers within .1 imp of each other over a couple of hundred boards, I would say that saying those pairs are all playing roughly equally well is dumb.

Some pairs play mainly against weak pairs strategically (perhaps they have a more active style, or stranger methods). This favors that pair.

Often the weakest pair on a team will be in against the weaker teams while the strongest pair takes a breather. This hurts the strongest pair on the teams butler a lot, and helps the weaker pairs butler.

In imps, since a few boards have a large weight on the overall butler score, sometimes you can get killed on the slam hands just because of luck. This can severely hurt your butler.

So I totally favor drawing reasonable conclusions from the butler, but people consistently draw unreasonable conclusions from them. Drawing unreasonable conclusions is worse than drawing no conclusions.
0

#115 User is offline   655321 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,502
  • Joined: 2007-December-22

Posted 2008-June-24, 17:38

I think butlers are very useful as a long term guide.

If a pair does well on butlers in one event it may not mean a lot - they may have played weaker pairs, got lucky on slams, etc. But if a pair consistently does well on butlers, it is pretty safe to assume they are playing well. And, equally, if a pair has one event where they are average on butlers it may not mean much. But if a pair is consistently average-poor on butlers it means a lot.

Sure, possibly people should have some idea if they are playing well or not, without the aid of butler scores. But IMO an objective measure is more, um, objective.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
0

#116 User is offline   glen 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,637
  • Joined: 2003-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada
  • Interests:Military history, WW II wargames

Posted 2008-June-25, 06:46

Now to confuse the Butlers we have the partnership of Versace-Sementa playing Holland (no, not the Netherlands, but the English partnership of Holland-Armstrong).
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
0

#117 User is offline   bidule4 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 2007-January-28

Posted 2008-June-25, 15:30

Jlall, on Jun 24 2008, 06:04 PM, said:

glen, on Jun 24 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 24 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler.

and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then?

I think trying to use stats for things they cannot be used for is stupid. If you were to say to me:

One pair had a butler of +1, the other of -1, over hundreds of boards. I would say it is safe to draw the conclusion that the +1 pair is playing better than the -1 pair.

If you were to say to me 3 pairs had butlers within .1 imp of each other over a couple of hundred boards, I would say that saying those pairs are all playing roughly equally well is dumb.

Some pairs play mainly against weak pairs strategically (perhaps they have a more active style, or stranger methods). This favors that pair.

Often the weakest pair on a team will be in against the weaker teams while the strongest pair takes a breather. This hurts the strongest pair on the teams butler a lot, and helps the weaker pairs butler.

Dont think many teams make the lineup
after looking at opps lineup.

(Can be between teams that often meet,
like USA-Itay or Italy-Norway)
yvan calame
0

#118 User is offline   MFA 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,625
  • Joined: 2006-October-04
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 2008-June-26, 07:34

bidule4, on Jun 25 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

Dont think many teams make the lineup
after looking at opps lineup.

(Can be between teams that often meet,
like USA-Itay or Italy-Norway)

In Pau we have blind lineup, just as in the Bermuda Bowl.

Curiously the butler from the final rounds have not yet been published. Perhaps it's better this way ;).
Michael Askgaard
0

#119 User is offline   Aberlour10 

  • Vugrapholic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,018
  • Joined: 2004-January-06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:At the Rhine River km 772,1

Posted 2008-June-27, 13:40

Who thought two weeks ago, Italy and Netherlands will fight for the last ticket to the next BB with one round to go...to see at the end that maybe France gets it.
Bridge Europe goes haywire these days :)
Preempts are Aberlour's best bridge friends
0

#120 User is offline   vcaramazza 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5
  • Joined: 2008-June-24

Posted 2008-June-27, 18:34

Aberlour10, on Jun 27 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Who thought two weeks ago, Italy and Netherlands will fight for the last ticket to the next BB with one round to go...to see at the end that maybe France gets it.
Bridge Europe goes haywire these days :)

Thanks Mrs Lavazza
0
  • 6 Pages +
  • « First
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users