[rbforster]

I'm thinking about strong club auctions where responder has shown negative values like 1♣-1♦ (rather than responder making a GF bid). For example,

1♣(16+)-1♦(0-8)-?

1♥ artificial and stronger 19+
1♠-2♥ nat limited 16-18
2♠+ ??? <------

How do people play these jump bids by a strong club opener? Similarly, I usually play "Kokish 1♥" over the 1♦ negative, so I also have the double negative sequence

1♣(16+)-1♦(0-8)
1♥(19+)-1♠(0-4)-?

2♣ artificial and very strong 22+
1N,2♦-2♠,3♣ nat limited 19-21
2N,3♦+ ??? <------

where again jump bids seem underused. Anyone have some good suggestions for these? Strong 2-suiters, natural with a long suit, something else? Are there other problem hands that these bids might be used to handle well?

[gwnn]

like an IJO, but with 16 hcp. concentrated values, nice 6 card suit.

[Trinidad]

I play them as conventional showing specific hand types that I take out off the 'regular' rebids. That way, the 'normal' rebids are not too much overloaded.

Rik

[rbforster]

Trinidad, on May 28 2008, 08:37 AM, said:

I play them as conventional showing specific hand types that I take out off the 'regular' rebids. That way, the 'normal' rebids are not too much overloaded.

Could you say more about your conventional bids? I'm interested in what hands you take out of the normal bids, how this makes the normal ones better, etc.

Right now I play them like gwnn's - good suits but not really extra values. I'm not sure this has a significant advantage over bidding and rebidding the suit however, hence I'm looking for other suggested meanings.

[jdonn]

I play them as follows.

2♠: 4♠ 6♥
2NT: 5♦ 5♣
3♣: 5♥ 5♣
3♦: 5♥ 5♦

That way when you bid 2♥ and follow with, say, a minor suit the next round, partner knows to preference with equal length. Of course you could reverse the whole procedure if you choose.

I also recommend kaplan inversion over 1♣ 1♦ 2♥
2♠ = like a forcing notrump. For rebids I would play 2NT is 4♠ 5♥ min, 3♠ is 4♠ 5♥ max, everything else natural.
2NT = 5+♠, maximum negative, forcing since opener can't be balanced or would rebid 1NT
(to force with spades bid 2♠ then 3♠, although very likely this isn't even a possible hand for you)

(made slight edits after posting)

[awm]

Here's what Sam and I used to play (before switching to a scheme where semi-positives are shown directly over 1♣):

1♠ = two suited hand with a major and a minor
2♣ = two suited hand with both majors
2♦, 2♥, 2♠ = natural, normally 6+ suit (although 2♦ could be 5♦+4♣)
2NT = 4-5 or more in the minors
3♣ = 6+♣
3♦-3♠ = forcing, setting the suit and asking for cuebids (relay on these hands is not so great since we are primarily interested in controls and not shape)

This somewhat mirrors my preferred defense to notrump (1♠ taking the place of double).

One point is that the sequence in your methods of 1♣-1♦-2♥ is potentially pretty awful. Suppose responder has a singleton heart and modest values. If opener has 6♥ and no side suit, it could easily be that 2♥ is the last making spot. But if opener has 5♥ and a side suit, we may well make game in the side suit on a good day and could easily go down in the 5-1 heart fit on a bad day, so playing 2♥ will be somewhat embarrassing. It seems quite helpful to distinguish between hands that have two suits of comparable (say within one card) length versus single suited hands.

[Dean]

Heres the scheme I use

1S = natural maybe canape
2C = hearts, 2 or 3 suited
2D = both minors with a major fragment i.e 5431 6430 5530
2H = single suited hearts
2S = both minors and/or longer clubs i.e. 55xx or 6421
2N = both minors and.or longer diamonds.

I have a pdf of this structure somewhere.

[PrecisionL]

Dwayne and I in Ultra Club:

1♣ - 1♦ - 1M = 4+ cards and One Round Force: 1♠/1NT = 0-4 hcp (2nd negative, no Ace)

1♣ - 1♦ - 2♥ = Super Flannery: 4♠ & 5♥ / 4♠ and 6♥, N.F.; 2NT+ Transfers

1♣ - 1♦ - 2♠ = Minor Suit Flannery: xx5♦5♣ 19+ hcp GI / 8.5 tricks: 3m to play, 3M = suit or stopper, Forcing

1♣ - 1♦ - 3♣/♦ = G.I. with 6m & 4M: Smolen continuations

1♣ - 1♦ - 3♥/♠ = 9 Tricks, N.F.

Larry

[OleBerg]

From Viking-Club:

1♣(16+)-1♦(0-7)
1♥ = 20+ (All below 16-19)

1♠ = Natural, normally 5+.
1nt = 16-19, bal.
2♣/2♦ = 5+ in the suit
2♥ =Natural
2♠ = Transfer to 2nt
2nt = a 5440 hand, with 5 hearts.
3♣ = 5+clubs, 5 hearts
3♦ = 5+diamonds, 5 hearts
3♥ = 6+hearts, 5 spades

After the 2♠-transfer to 2nt:

3♣ = 6+clubs, 4 hearts
3♦ = 6+diamonds, 4 hearts
3♥ = 6+ hearts, 4 spades




1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠(0-4)

1nt = 20-21 bal
2♣ = Forcing for a round any 22+ (On this 2♦ is 0-2, other is GF)
2nt = 24-25 bal
3nt = 26-27 bal
Other = Naturel


The system has won a Bermuda Bowl. (I guess the players were good too.)

[Impact]

I am comfortable using canape with 1S (& hence other simple rebids by opener deny 4+S), while other bids are specialised:-

1C - 1D (negative, or 8-9 flat OR 8+ denying 2 controls 2-1 OR 20+)
?

1H= good 19+ suitable for further relay
1S= 16-19, 4+S may have longer sidesuit
1NT= 16-18/19
2C= 16-19, 5+C (unless 1-4-4-4 with small sing) denies 4+S
2D= 16-19, 5+D , <4S
2H= 16-18/19 5+H, <4S
2S= Zeta asking bid in S
2NT= Zeta asking bid in H
3C= 16-18 9 tricks in C with 6+ solid C
3D= 16-18 9 tricks in D with 6+solid D
3H= 16-18 9 tricks in H with 6+solid H
3S= 16-18 9 tricks in S with 6+ solid S
3NT= T unless you have 10+HCP

Purpose is to allow responder to show a stopper or convert to 3NT opposite 9 trick type hand both for pairs scoring and 3NT making versus 4M failing....

1C - 1D
1H - 1S (0-4 or 5flat OR 20+)
?

1NT=19/20-21
2C= GFR and only way to force uneqivocally (except for Zeta asks)
2D= 20+ nat
2H= 20+ nat
2S= 20+ nat
2NT= Zeta in C
3C= COLOUR 5+5+ usually 20+ but not suitable for GF
3D= RANK 5+5+
3H= 5+H & 5+C nf but highly encouraging
3S= 5+ S & 5+D nf but hightly encouraging
3NT= T
4m= similar to 3M but 6+minor and needs little for 5m ie emphasis but not solid
4M= T

Frankly in terms of utility, the specialised bids have a very rare occurrence (albeit the Zeta asking bids have come up about a dozen times in real life over 18+ years) but the others are really for CTC types.....

regards

[Free]

Here's a scheme I used to play after double negative:
1NT = bal or semibal
2X = canapé transfer
2NT = 24+HCP bal, <9 tricks, no 5 card M
3X = GF sets trump
3NT = 24+HCP bal, 9 tricks, no 5 card M

Canapé transfers are the following:
- with a 4-5 distribution you transfer your short suit and bid your long suit afterwards
- with a hand willing to signoff at 2-level you transfer your suit (3-level in case you want to play in ♣)
- with an invitational hand with a long suit, you transfer your suit and rebid it (unable to do that in ♣)
- with a 24+HCP hand and 5 card M you can transfer the suit and bid NT afterwards.
Responder will usually accept the transfer, but when it's a transfer M you can superaccept with a 4 card support.

Advantages:
- you have more ways to show different hand types
- you can still find distributional games
- the transfer doesn't wrongside the contract since every suit has been bid
- you don't lose much, except the ♣ suit at 2-level (which is always the first victim)

Disadvantages:
- sometimes you get too high when you have 4♣ with a longer side suit (so be careful - you may want to just transfer at 2-level and pass)

[dbsboy]

My response structure in Weird Club:

After 1♣-1♦ (Negative Response):

1♥ = 4+♥ (Canape ok) or some strong Balanced Hands, Forcing
1♠ = 4+♠ (Canape ok), Forcing
1NT = 17-20 Balanced
2♣ = 5+♣ no 4M NF
2♦ = 5+♦ One Suiter NF
2♥ = 5+♦ 4+♣, F1
2♠ = FG with 4♠ Unbalanced
2NT = 21-22 Balanced
3m = FG 6+m usually One Suiter
3M = FG 5+♣ 4+♦ with 3 Card M

[shevek]

You need a way to cater for the heart hands. The balanced ones with 5♥s bid 1NT.
If 1♥ rebid is good 19+ any, a hand like

x, AKxx, AJxxx, Axx

is very awkward. Rebidding 2♦ could see you play there with 4♥ cold.

A decent solution (from David Morgan) is to play 2♣ Aspro/Astro here, showing hearts & another, usually a minor. So

1♣ - 1♦
2♣ - 2♦ = passable "relay"
   2♥ = 3-cd support

Over 2♦, opener can pass with long diamonds, bid 3♣ canape, bid 2♥ with 5 & a 4-cd minor, bid 2♠ with 4-5 majors. This is not best but simple.

As a consequence
1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 1NT
2♥

is always 5 spades. If you don't play Aspro, this sequence could be 4-5.

Of course, playing Aspro here kills the club hands. We play

1♣ - 1♦

2♠ 5-5 spades & a minor
2NT minors, could be 4-5
3♣ 6+♣s
3♦ 5-5 reds
3♥ 5-5 Majors

[icer]

Hi! How aboat:

1♣(16+)-1♦(0-7)
1♥ ≈ 20+ Relay reloaded! (All below 16-19)
1♠ = 4♠+.
1nt = 17-19, bal.
2♣/2♦/2♥= 5+ in the suit
2♠ = 4♠ 6♥
2nt = 5♦ 5♣
3♣ = 5♥ 5♣
3♦ = 5♥ 5♦
3♥ = g6♥+ 4-4½ losers (pd might pass 2♥ with a raise here)
3nt/4M/5m = to play

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠(0-4)
1nt = 20-22 bal
2♣ = GForcing...but not willing to set own suit
2♦/2♥/2♠/3m= 5+ in the suit ≈20-22
2nt = 23-24 bal
3M/4m = suit setting...show sec.round control..nt with trump A/K or 1.r.c.
3nt/4M/5m = to play...no slam javascript:emoticon('')
smilie

[dake50]

Jump the Heart + 2nd suit hands. The Spade + 2nd hands then slowly/later jump explore.

Opponents Spade fit obstruct/barrage are then defused. We know our fit(s) immediately and can bid Spades at level they go. Fewer cases to consider whatever they do.

[rbforster]

Thank you for all your suggestions! After thinking about your ideas and my system, I think I'll try to show stronger two suiters (i.e. "extras" but not GF, about 5 losers) by making a bid of 2N+. Direct bids are spade-oriented, while bidding 1♥ showing extras and then jumping to 2N+ after a 1♠ double negative response are heart-oriented.

1♣-1♦:

1♥ strong 19+
1♠ min 2 suiter (5/4,5/5,6/5) with 1+ major, or extras (but not GF) with 6m/4M
1N 16-18 balanced or 4441
2♣♦ 5+ min
2♥♠ 6+ min
2N 5/5 ♣+♠ extras
3♣ 5/5 minors extras
3♦ 5/5 ♦+♠ extras
3♥ 5/5 ♥+♠ extras

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠:

1N 19-21, could be 4441 or semibalanced with 5♣
2♣ "strong 2♣", 4 losers or less, artificial force
2♦ 5+ extras, not 6♦/4M
2♥♠ 5+ extras
2N 5/5 ♣+♥ extras
3♣ 6+ extras, not 6♣/4M
3♦ 5/5 ♦+♥ extras
3♥ 4=6 ♠+♥ extras

Since the hands with clubs and extras are treated poorly to accommodate the 2♣ artificial force, I tried to make the only natural 3♣ bid more sound. This was accomplished by 1) letting 1NT be bid with (4xx)5 if appropriate, and 2) adding the 6♣/4♥♠ hands to the special two-suited sequence 1♣-1♦-1♠ and then showing them by bidding 2N (6m/4♠) or 3m (6m/4♥).

1♣-1♦-1♠: responder will either make an asking bid or attempted signoff and opener will typically respond with his cheapest suit (scrambling), his longest suit, or his major (depending on what responder bid). These responses handle the minimum hands, and are up to 2♠. The hands with extras bid higher as follows:

2N 6m/4♠ extras (3♣ is p/c for the minor)
3♣ 6♣/4♥ extras
3♦ 6♦/4♥ extras

[rbforster]

I notice in a lot of these methods there are bids at the 3 level showing things like specific 5/5 minimums or 6/4 minimums. Do you find that those bids are relatively "safe" opposite a weak responder?

I've been thinking I'm a little more partial to methods like Adam's where one of opener's cheap rebid over 1♦ negative (like 1♠) is sacrificed for showing some of these minimum 2-suiters. This frees up the higher bids to be shapely but with extras, maybe 19-21ish. This in turn makes the natural bidding after a 2nd negative more precise. For example, after a 2nd negative sequence 1♣-1♦-1♥(19+)-1♠(0-4), if 2♥ is natural but can't be 5♥/5m (since that has a special bid earlier), then 2♥...3m by opener shows that the minor is clearly shorter.

[PrecisionL]

Here is the ULTIMATE CLUB Scheme for showing two suiters (5-5 or better):

1♣ - 1♦ - :

2♠  = ♠ +♦
2NT = ♣ + M (3♦ asks for the M)
3♣  = ♣ + ♦
3♦  = ♦ + ♥
3♥  = ♥ + ♠

None of these bids is forcing; further bidding is natural.

However, after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠,
or 1♣ - 1♥, or 1♣  - 1♠,

then the same sequences above apply with the loss of 2♠ (which would be natural) and then 3♠  = ♠ + ♦

Larry

[rbforster]

OleBerg, on May 28 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

From Viking-Club:

After the 2♠-transfer to 2nt:

3♣ = 6+clubs, 4 hearts
3♦ = 6+diamonds, 4 hearts
3♥ = 6+ hearts, 4 spades

I kinda like this idea of 2♠ relay to 2N to show several additional hand types. Instead of using it for a bunch of heart hands though, what do you think about using this as 5/5 with spades?

1♣-1♦-2♠ 5/5 with spades

2N asks:

3♣ 5/5 ♠+♣
3♦ 5/5 ♠+♦
3♥ 5/5 ♠+♥

This seems to have some advantages:

- right-sides both of opener's suits
- promises spades so partner can pass sometimes with a bad hand and 3 spades
- at worst you get out at the 3 level in partner's preference after a 2N ask (which seems at least as good as many of the 3 level methods described here)

By using 2♠ as a multi-purpose bid, you free up the direct bids of 2N-3♥ to show whatever other hands you'd like (5/5 with hearts, both minors, etc).