[fan13027]

My regular partner and I have been using Blackwood RKC 0314 for quite a while. We are also working on developing a Full Disclosure Convention Card.

After considerable trial and error, we finally discovered that it is impossible to write custom conventions to include in our convention card. We did note however that there is a BBO supplied convention to include except it is written using 1430 instead of 0314.

In order to solve our convention card problem we decided to switch to using 1430 instead of our regular 0314 so we could include the pre-defined convention for full disclosure. But now I am noticing that in fact more people seem to play 0314 as opposed to 1430. It causes even more confusion if I find myself playing in a tourney with a "pickup" partner because I have 1430 displayed on my profile but will use 0314 responses if that is what they have on their profile.

Of course I know I could solve the "confusion with pickup partners" problem if we just quickly came to an agreement at the start of a tourney. But now that I am paying more attention to it, it raises the question for me (as an intermediate player) ... is there a preferred method between the two choices and if so why?

[jdonn]

There are some people who switch between 3014 and 1430 depending on which suit is trumps, whether the stronger or weaker hand is bidding keycard, and various other factors. But I don't like getting involved in that stuff, so to me there is a very simple answer.

1430 is preferable to 3014 because responder holds one keycard much more often than zero keycards, meaning

- You can more often stop in 5♣ if clubs are trumps.
- You can more often ask for the trump queen (with 5♦) if hearts are trumps.

While on the flip side 3 is more common than 4, that really doesn't matter since you are usually bidding slam if partner has 3 keycards.

[blackshoe]

Josh is right, up to a point, but it occurs to me that if clubs are trumps and replier has no aces, you're going to be forced to the six level. Not sure how likely a situation it is, but it is at least possible, and I'd hate to be in it.

Personally, although Kickback has its own problems, I'd much rather play that (with thorough discussion of when it does and does not apply) than 1430 with 4NT as the only ask. Not with a pickup partner, of course.

[ArtK78]

Kantar recommends 1430 when the strong hand is bidding 4NT, and, in those rare instances where the weak hand bids 4NT, he recommends 3014.

As for minor suit slam bidding, you really should use some method other than 4NT to ask for keycards. Kickback or minorwood are two solutions.

[rogerclee]

ArtK78, on Nov 25 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

As for minor suit slam bidding, you really should use some method other than 4NT to ask for keycards.  Kickback or minorwood are two solutions.

Disagree, it is not really necessary, I have never found myself at a serious disadvantage from not playing kickback. Minorwood is one of the most abused (and worst) conventions in bridge, it is only useful in very specific situations.

[jikl]

I remember in the old days, we played 0314 unless the suit was ♥, then we played 1430.

Sean

[TylerE]

Strongly disagree with clee on minorwood.

[jdonn]

TylerE, on Nov 25 2008, 06:04 PM, said:

Strongly disagree with clee on minorwood.

Strongly agree with him. Except for a few specific auctions, it usually eats up a far more valuable natural 4m bid.

[655321]

Agree with clee. I hardly ever play special keycard conventions for the minors and am happy without them.

[awm]

It may be worth mentioning that:

(1) There is this great convention called Kickback whereby the suit just above four of the trump suit is RKC. This method does require some discussion, because there are some ambiguous auctions about whether a bid is kickback or proposing to play there.

(2) If you are playing Kickback, then it really doesn't matter whether you play 1430 or 0314. You will always have a "queen ask" below five of the trump suit, you will never have partner's RKC response pushing you above five of the trump suit, and so forth.

(3) Kickback is a much better agreement than minorwood. On the occasions I've played minorwood I've had ugly auctions galore, mostly because of point 4.

(4) Most people overuse ace-asking bids. Playing without any ace-asking bid in the minor suits could easily be right. Certainly I would rather play a system where I can't ace-ask than play a system where I can't have a cuebidding auction. This is basically the problem with minorwood (often you want to agree the minor and ask a cue, but you can't because 4m is keycard).

(5) If you play exclusion keycard, it is usually better to play 0314 over this because zero becomes a lot more common.

Otherwise I basically agree with jdonn that 1430 is slightly better.

[shevek]

blackshoe, on Nov 25 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

Josh is right, up to a point, but it occurs to me that if clubs are trumps and replier has no aces, you're going to be forced to the six level. Not sure how likely a situation it is, but it is at least possible, and I'd hate to be in it.

With clubs, more likely is the case where partner has shown values and you need 2KCs for slam but want to stay in 5♣ opposite one. Maybe

♠x  ♥AKxx  ♦Kx  ♣KQxxxx

1♣  (3♠)  ?

4NT RKC is crude here but probably effective, assuming you are playing 1430 and can stop in 5♣ opposite

♠KQx  ♥Qx  ♦Qxx  ♣AJxxx.

[han]

Yep, agree with what Adam wrote.

[Codo]

To the real question: Kantar had wrote a thick book about the pros and cons of 1430 and 3041. But in reality the difference is really small.

KC is in all its versions an abused convention. It is not a way to find slams, it is a tool to avoid bad slams. So you should use it after you know that you have control in all suits and sufficent strength to make 12 tricks. So maybe the space till 4 Club or Diamond is not sufficent to find this out and 4 NT is of greater value to use it as RCKB.

For minorwood and kickback: Like RCKB these are tools, IF you have no good idea how to use it and no clear rules, you will hurt yourself. And you need much more rules then for a simple 4 NT KC bid, espc. in contested auction or when the partnership has more then one possible trump suit.

But if you can handle the tools, they can have great value. (If this value is bigger or smaller then having 4 in the minor for other purposes is another question.)

[Trinidad]

I basically agree that 1430 is better than 0314.

However, in my experience the invention of 1430 is the most costly improvement in bridge bidding theory. Sure, there are a few cases where 1430 is better than 0314. There are also a few cases where 0314 is better than 1430. (These cases are fewer, therefore 1430 is better.)

Though it is relatively easy to prove that 1430 is an improvement, the overall improvement is marginal. At the same time,the cost of the invention is large. Since the introduction of 1430, loads of slams have been bid off two aces or good slams have been missed, all because one half of the partnership was playing 1430 and the other 0314. If you play with several partners and partner X bids 4NT, you need to dig deep in your memory to figure out what to bid with any number of keycards, other than 2 (or 5). This digging will not always be successful. The failure rate is orders of magnitude higher than the overall bidding improvement due to the change to 1430. Therefore, the introduction of 1430 has cost more IMPs than it gained.

(And then I am not even talking about the misunderstandings in DOPI or PODI when 0314 is switched to 1430.)

Rik

[NickRW]

Just to add a controversial note. If you guys counted your picture cards 6/4/2/1 for suit bidding and even slam bidding in NT (i.e. put proper emphasis on aces and stopped overvaluing quacks) you'd find as I have that good ol' quantative bidding and cue bids largely kicks the need for these archaic xxx-wood conventions into the long grass.

When you count 6/4/2/1 and slam enters your mind you'll find that you're rarely off 2 aces in the first place.

Nick