[peppygal]

Please tell me the correct opening bid when you hold 5 - 5 in minors, 17+ HCP. I know the correct first bid if you hold 5 -5 in majors, is to bid the higher suit first, but what if you hold 5 clubs and 5 diamonds, with a hand worth showing adverse holding? Thank you for answering me. Peppygal

[mtvesuvius]

I usually open it 1♦ and jump shift into 3♣, however I know many people prefer to reverse here.

[Gerben42]

With any two 5-card suits, it is best practice to open the higher-ranking one.

You might want to treat

♠A4
♥A
♦65432
♣AKQJT

as a 5-4 hand, though, and open 1♣ planning to rebid 2♦.

[kenrexford]

Open 1♦ unless you play canape. Duh.

[helene_t]

If you have just enough to reverse but not enough to force to game, bid diamonds first. If you reverse, partner may take false preference for clubs with a doubleton support so you play 3♣ in a 5-2 fit while you have a 5-3 fit in diamonds. The way to bid the hand is
1♦-1M
2♣-2♦
3♣-
and now partner nows which partscore is better if he won't accept your game try.

If you have enough to force to game there is a case for reversing:
1♣-M
2♦-Ingbergman
3♦
may be more descriptive than
1♦-1M
3♣
which by many players could be a one-suited hand with diamonds, or 6-4, or 5-4.

On the other hand, suppose it goes
1♣-(4♠)-p-(p)
?
You would now want to show your two-suited hand with 4NT since 5♦ bypasses 5♣. But 4NT ought to show six clubs and a 4-card in a red suit. OTOH
1♦-(4♠)-p-(p)
5♣
shows your hand since with 6-4 you would have bid 4NT.

In conclusion: keep it simple, always bid the higher ranking suit first with 5-5. You avoid reverses which are quite difficult to handle, and you can describe your shape if opps preempt.

[foo]

peppygal, on Jan 16 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

Please tell me the correct opening bid when you hold 5 - 5 in minors, 17+ HCP. I know the correct first bid if you hold 5 -5 in majors, is to bid the higher suit first, but what if you hold 5 clubs and 5 diamonds, with a hand worth showing adverse holding? Thank you for answering me. Peppygal

The simple "book" answer is to always start by bidding ♦'s.

Unless you and your partner have explicitly discussed making exceptions to this for specific circumstances, and how to deal with the consequences of making such exceptions, I strongly suggest always making the "book" bid.

[kfay]

kenrexford, on Jan 16 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Open 1♦ unless you play canape. Duh.

Nice

[foo]

kfay, on Jan 16 2009, 10:10 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Jan 16 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Open 1♦ unless you play canape.  Duh.

Nice

Actually, more than a bit rude. Especially when responding to someone who may very well be a B/I given the question.

I've seen posts edited and people's warning level raised for less.

[ASkolnick]

Part of the problem that I have is that with both minors and that middle range of HCP, you may not have game and get too high.

How my partner and I solve this problem is 2C is forcing for one round.

Sure, you don't get to stop on a dime in 2C, but responder can then rebid his major, support diamonds, or raise clubs when appropriate.

This also means we won't open our minors on complete garbage as well.

[gwnn]

I think the warning level of other posters is not publicly visible. What does this mean?

Helene, why do you say partner would take "false preference" over a reverse. If we promise 5♣4♦, it is normal preference to want to play clubs with 2♣3♦.

[jdonn]

gwnn, on Jan 16 2009, 01:47 PM, said:

Helene, why do you say partner would take "false preference" over a reverse. If we promise 5♣4♦, it is normal preference to want to play clubs with 2♣3♦.

Yes because it's not 4 and 5, it's 4 and 5+.

[awm]

It is totally normal to open 1♦ here. Opening the higher of two suits allows partner to preference back when you later bid (or jump-bid) the lower.

It's a common beginner/intermediate mistake when learning about reverses to open a lower suit with a good hand "in order to reverse." The problem is that this shows more length in the first suit than the second, and you will never convince partner of your real distribution. The right choice here is to open 1♦ and rebid clubs; either 2♣ (if around 11-17 hcp) or 3♣ (if a little bit better).

[jdonn]

awm, on Jan 16 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

It's a common beginner/intermediate mistake when learning about reverses to open a lower suit with a good hand "in order to reverse." The problem is that this shows more length in the first suit than the second, and you will never convince partner of your real distribution. The right choice here is to open 1♦ and rebid clubs; either 2♣ (if around 11-17 hcp) or 3♣ (if a little bit better).

Ditto. It's hard to say without seeing the exact hand, but between 17 and 18 is probably the most accurate cutoff for whether to jump shift with a 5-5 hand. There are 17s that are probably worth a jump shift (Ax x AKTxx KQJTx) and 18s that probably aren't (Jx K AKQJx KJxxx) but it's a reasonable guidline.

[Phil]

Somewhere, someone is teaching that its correct to open a strong, but not GF hand with 5-5 in the minors with 1♣ planning on "reversing". I've seen it too many times in my classes and I frequently have to debunk this myth.

[foo]

Phil, on Jan 16 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

Somewhere, someone is teaching that its correct to open a strong, but not GF hand with 5-5 in the minors with 1♣ planning on "reversing". I've seen it too many times in my classes and I frequently have to debunk this myth.

+1

I may have some insight as to why this disease is running around. I've had a few players tell me that Some Local Expert (pick a random one) "did <foo> while I was kibitzing." as justification for =them= trying the same stuff.

I often have to remind such players that SLE
a= is probably not playing anything close to Standard,
b= often has specialized agreements and systemic methods for the situation they saw,
c= has much better bridge skills to use as a safety net, and
d= they may very well be "taking a flyer", "operating", or simply doing something =wrong=. ("Expert" does not mean "infallible").

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I suppose as a more complete answer, I would rather lie about my minor length the other way, for tactical reasons.

Whenever I have both minors, I imagine the auction returning to me at the worst possible level, like maybe 4♠. 1min-1♠-pass-4♠-?

If I start with 1♣, I have a hard time showing diamonds. If I start with 1♦, I have an easy time showing clubs.

Sure, 4NT is available. However, whereas 1♦...5♣ sounds like 5-5, 1♦...4NT sounds like 6-4. If 1♣...4NT sounds like 6-4, then I have a mild problem with 5♦+6♣. So, I might understand opening 1♦ with 5♦/6♣ for this reason.

With 5-5 in the minors, however, life is great if I open 1♦.

[ggwhiz]

foo, on Jan 16 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

Phil, on Jan 16 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

Somewhere, someone is teaching that its correct to open a strong, but not GF hand with 5-5 in the minors with 1♣ planning on "reversing". I've seen it too many times in my classes and I frequently have to debunk this myth.

+1

I may have some insight as to why this disease is running around. I've had a few players tell me that Some Local Expert (pick a random one) "did <foo> while I was kibitzing." as justification for =them= trying the same stuff.

I've had the same experience and have played with a 6,000 MP player that opens 1♣ on a hand like this every few months.

It simply doesn't work and when I have 3♦ and 2♣ we always play in ♣. ALWAYS.

As Ken points out, you are handing the opponents an opportunity to bury your auction if they start bidding and raising a major. If your pard is weak, even 1♣ - 1♠ - P - 2♠ is a headache but if you start with 1♦ it's not.

[helene_t]

Phil, on Jan 16 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

Somewhere, someone is teaching that its correct to open a strong, but not GF hand with 5-5 in the minors with 1♣ planning on "reversing". I've seen it too many times in my classes and I frequently have to debunk this myth.

I think it is part of some outdated bidding systems. I have seen in course notes for 1-o-1 and "Looier", and I think even (but I may be wrong) a very old book of Culbertson. Thinking about it, I think Henderson's Acol book also teaches this.