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takeout & negative doubles beginners guide

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2004-May-13, 19:15

Hi
I have read the threads in Beginner/Intermediate forum on doubles and I still have questions, a lot of it is waaayy over my head. The 3 doubles I think concern me, as a B/I are Penalty, Takeout & Negative

I have Penalty double understood and agreed to with my reg partner.
Could someone please explain, in simple B/I language Takeout & Negative doubles?

TYIA

also...no special partnership agreement, B/I playing sayc:
N E S W
1C X P 1NT

Is 1nt to play or does it show xxx, xxx, xxx, xxxx?
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-May-13, 22:00

There is not a lot of differnece between a takeout double and a negative double. They are both for "takeout". A takeout double is this, your opponents open somehting, say 1 and you are short in with good values. Say you are 1-4-4-4 with stiff spade. You double 1 to get your partner to bid his suit. You want him to "take the double out" to his best suit.

A negative double is just a "takeout double" after your partner opens and they overcall. For istance, your partner opens 1 and the next hand bids 1 and you have 4. 5 and about 9 points. You don't have enough to bid 2, so you double, telling your partner that you ahve the other two suits, and you want him to "take the double out", either bakc to his suit, or to one of your suits. It is called "negative' becasuse if you had a better hand you could bid your suit without doubling, or yhou could cue-bid their suit.

As for the hand you show ... NOOOOOOO don't bid 1NT. After a takeout double, 1NT should always so values (but not necessarily a stopper). Simply bid your best (and cheapest) suit. Over 1X, I would bid 1 and hope partner doesn't jump in any suit or NT at his next opportunity.

Ben
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#3 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2004-May-14, 04:17

Hi Jillybean and all,

Further to Ben's post I would like to add some more info.
Take-out dbl
Opps opened 1/2/3... of suit and we double - that's the classic position for take-out dbl. When Opps opened at level 1st the take-out double may include following types of hands:
1. (11)12+ points with 3+ cards support for all unbid suits,
for example opps 1 we DBL with Axxx xx AQxx Kxx or
AKx xx AKQx AKxx
2. (16)17+ points with own 5-cards suit (may not have support for the other unbid)
for example opps 1 we dbl with AKJxx Axx KQJx x or
Qx JxxAK AQJ10xx
3. 18+ points balanced with stopper in Opps suit (too strong for direct 1NT overcall)
for example KQx KJxAJ10xKQx or
AxAQxxKxAKQx
4. any hand that has enough strength or tricks to bid game with minimum or zero support from partner

When opps open at level 2 or higher then the min option (item 1) has to be a Queen stronger for each level (abt 13+ p for level2, 15+ for 3 etc..)

Negative DBL
Partner opens 1 of a suit Opps overcall with suit we DBL
In my view it's called "negative" because usually denies fit for partners 1 Major opening. Standart treatement is to show 4 cards in the unbid Major and abot (7)8+ points. For example P openes 1 opps overcall 1 we dbl with

xxxAQxxKxxxxx or AxKQxxxxxAQxx

again when opps overcall at higher level the minimum strength rise with about a Queen for a level.

Next we may discuss the responses

Regards,
Rado
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#4 User is offline   EarlPurple 

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Posted 2004-May-23, 09:46

The only reason they are called "negative" doubles is because traditionally in that sequence, double was penalty. And lucrative doubles could be scored after a 2-level overcall, so many players were reluctant to give up playing them. At rubber bridge, many players still play double in this sequence as penalty.
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#5 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2004-May-29, 03:48

Hi all,
Further several requests from friends, here will try shortly to describe continuations after t/o dbls

Will assume Opps opened 1 of a suit - partner DBL - opp Pass
1-DBL-pass-? will be our base example unless shown another one

1.PASS - a)I have a trump stuck and believe they will go down for bigger number than eventual our contract - e.g. pass with QJ10xxxxAxxKQx - most probably we will make 3NT but 1 dbl will score more
:) - I have a trump length and hope this to be the least of the evils - e.g. QJxxxxxxxxxxx -
2. New suit at minimum level - 0-7(8) points and 4+ cards NF (sometimes even 3 cards) e.g. - xxxxQxxKxxxxx - bid 2, but after 1-DBL-pass with Kxxxxxxxxxxxx bid 1 and not 2
3. 1NT/2NT/3NT - all NF
a)1NT tends to show abt 7-10 points at least half/stopper in opps suit (sometimes even 5-6 points when no other convenient bid available)
e.g. Q10xKxxQJxxJxx - perfect 1NT after 1 or
QJxxxxxQxxxxx - again 1NT the least of the evils
b)2NT - about 11-12 points with stopper in opps suit
c:3NT - about 13-15 ponits with stopper in opps suit
4. new suit with single jump showing arnd (8)9-11p with (4)5+ cards - NF
e.g. xxAKxxKxxxxxx - bid 3 after 1
xxxxAxxKQxxx - bid 3
5. New suit with double jump
a) if at game level then 5+ cards and 12-15p ( 1-DBL-pass-4)
B) if not a game then 6+ cards abt 2-6 points preemptive (1-dbl -pass-3
6. que in Opps suit - 11+ points F1 showing a hand which does not have another description (very strong or balanced without stopper.....)

Items 5b) and 6) have many different interpretations and styles

Hope above will help you, continuing with rebids of the DOUBLER:-)
Regards
Rado
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#6 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-May-29, 16:52

This is a good post, two things i have to say about it.
The cue bid after a minor opening is normally either a GF hand, or a hand with a value for a jump (8)9-11 but with both majors (the alternative would be to jump in one of the majors and we might lose the better fit) after the cue bid, the doubler picks her best major, now the only non GF bid is raizing that major, this mean u had the 8-11 hcp with both majors, any other bid would be natural and GF.
Rado gave many examples, all good and make sense however some are judgement bids which have other possible choices.
♠QJxxx♥xx♦xxx♣xxx bidding 2m is the an alternative.
♠Kxx♥xxxx♦xxxx♣xx bididng 2d is an alternative.
QJxx♥xxx♦Qxx♣xxx bidding 2x is an alternative.
choosing what rado did is good but bidding the alternative isnt bad either.
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#7 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-May-30, 05:11

Rado, on May 29 2004, 04:48 AM, said:

Hi all,
Further several requests from friends, here will try shortly to describe continuations after t/o dbls

Will assume Opps opened 1 of a suit - partner DBL - opp Pass
1-DBL-pass-? will be our base example unless shown another one

At the risk of sowing confusion there are many players who play jump advances following double of 1 suit as transfers. Pass of the double, simple changes of suit and any bids in NT by advancer retain their original, standard. natural non-forcing meanings.

Thus:

1-X-P-2 = clubs, 3 = diamonds, 3 = Hearts and 3 = nebulous cue

The minimum shape and values for the transfer would be the same as for a standard non-forcing limit jump shift (about a 10 count, perhaps a little less, at least 4 cards in suit indicated). Doubler accepts the transfer if he would have passed a natural, non-forcing jump advance, else makes his natural rebid (including cue of opps suit to look for guard). If doubler accepts the transfer then advancer passes if he had a non-forcing jump advance, else makes a natural rebid with extras (including cue of opps suit to look for guard).

Why do all this? The problem historically has been the trend to move away from strong jump overcalls. Additionally, doubler may have a hand suitable for NT but too strong for initial 1NT overcall. Thus doubler may have one of three hand types: 3-suited short in opener (which may be fairly weak opening strength), strong jump overcall in an unspecified suit, or v strong balanced (where his best suit may be opener's). A classic error made by beginners opposite a double is to assume the most likely hand type (weakish 3 suiter) and leap to game (with sufficient strength) in an unbid 4 card major. This can lead to disaster when doubler has one of the other two hand types and perhaps only doubleton support for advancer's major.

Playing natural jump shifts, advancer pretty much has to start off with a cue bid on nearly any GF hand, to avoid these disasters, and this puts quite a strain on the continuations following the cue bid. Playing transfers, the transfer has no upper limit on strength and allows advancer to show 2 suited hands when GF.

Furthermore, the genuine cue bid is a more expensive bid, but on a far more restricted hand type (typically a very balanced hand with inadequate guard in opp's suit). Advancer may even have 4 low in opps suit and no other 4 card suit, but a pile of points. Note that as this bid is also made in the suit below the opponents' suit, doubler has the option of re-cue-bidding to pass the buck back to advancer.
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#8 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2004-July-08, 09:40

Hi all again!
The promised rebids of the DOUBLER (better late than never:-)))))))))))
1. Assume partner made negative response (suit or NT at min level): 1-DBL-pass-2-pass
Now:
1a) PASS = normal take-out (12-15 p, 3+ suport for unbid)
1b) new suit non jump = stronger (16-20p 5+ cards) but still NF
xxxAKxKQJxxxA - bid 2
1c) new suit with jump = 6+ suit abt 8-8,1/2 tricks needs little help from partner for making game
xxAAKJ10xxxKQx - bid 3
1d) NT at min level = (18)19-20 balanced + stopper in opps suit
KxxKQxAKxxAxx - bid 2NT
1e) NT with jump:
if possible jump to 2NT (1x-DBL-pass-1x-...) then 21-23 ballanced
if the jump is to 3NT then is to play based on long suit + stoppers
AJxKxAKQxxxxQ
1f) fit for partner non jump = 4+ fit (15)16-18 p
xxAKxxQJxAKxx - bid 3
1g) fit for partner with Jump
if 4 minor then Slam interest
if 4 Major then to play
-AKQxKQJxAKxxx - bid 4 when P answered 2, but bid 2 if P answered 2
xAKxxKQJxxxKQ bid 4 if P responded 2
1h) cue in opps suit = FG, might be based on fit for partner or owns suit or ballanced
AKQxxAQJxAQxx - bid 2
AxxKQxxxxAAQJ - bid 2
AQxAKxKQJxxJxx - bid 2
1j) jump cue in opps suit = Splinter (singl/void 4+ fit and FG values
xAQxAKJxxAKxx
IN GENERAL: pass showing the min t/o, new suit + non jump fit showing better t/o,
jump new suit + jump fit showing max t/o but still NF, NT showing bal hand and cue for all FG (based on fit, own suit or balanced)

Have to point that on 1e and 1g there are different methods also useful

in case opps compete: 1-DBL-2-pass-pass or 1-DBL-pass-2-2
2nd DBL from showing 16+ with support for 3 unbid, others remain similar to above
2. Assume partner made positive response (jump suit or jump NT): 1-DBL-pass-3-pass
Here only PASS (= min t/o around 12-14(15)p and supp for 3 unbid) is NF:-))))))))
3. Partner made forcing response - cue
1-DBL-pass-2
here 3 showing normal t/o 12-15 p
2NT = stopper + 12-15 and no 4 cards in
3NT = stopper and 18-20
3 and 4 showing stronger DBL

Still many continuations to come, cheers:-)
Rado
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#9 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2004-July-08, 09:43

This is a post with less detail than the previous examples:

I'd define a negative double as a double where you deny two things:
You deny a penalty double of opps suit
You deny support for pd's suit.
So you usually show the two remaining suits.

A Takeout double is a double where you show values to compete and not a penalty double of opps suit, you expect pd to take the dbl out to some intelligent contract or pass when he has the opps suit well stacked.
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#10 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-July-08, 09:51

Well put Luis.
Short and simple and easy to understand.

Mike :D
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#11 User is offline   EarlPurple 

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Posted 2004-July-08, 11:51

luis, on Jul 8 2004, 11:43 PM, said:

This is a post with less detail than the previous examples:

I'd define a negative double as a double where you deny two things:
You deny a penalty double of opps suit
You deny support for pd's suit.
So you usually show the two remaining suits.

A Takeout double is a double where you show values to compete and not a penalty double of opps suit, you expect pd to take the dbl out to some intelligent contract or pass when he has the opps suit well stacked.

You deny support for partner's major if he opened one, but if partner opened a minor you may have support but be looking for a 4-4 major fit.

Ideally you would have this hand for a negative double after your partner opened 1 and the next hand overcalled 1;

xx KQxx Qxx Qxxx

You want to bid but cannot bid anything else. You have 4 cards in both unbid suits, and you even have good support for partner's diamonds if that's all he has.

However you can't base all your bidding on ideals or you'll find too many hands unbiddable. (Or: this is what we'd ideally like to hold for the bid, but it's not always what we're dealt).

Strengthen the hand to:

xx KQxx Qxx AQxx

a whole ace stronger, so now you have the values to bid 2. But just because you have the values for it doesn't mean you should bid it. If the next hand raises his partner's spades, you will struggle to find a 4-4 heart fit. Of course you can possibly bid 3 next round and hope partner does the right thing, but a double now makes it a lot easier.

Now change it to:

xx KQxx QJxx xxx

You can double here hoping to find a 4-4 heart fit. You can run back to diamonds if partner bids 2. You can bid the same way with the club and spade suits reversed. If your LHO raises his partner to 2 and it comes back to you, you have just enough to compete to 3. Partner should know this bid is competitive and not take you any higher.

(1) xx AQxxx Qxx xxx
(2) xx AQxxx Kxx Axx

What to do here on (1)? You have 5 hearts but not enough strength to bid 2 now.

Some pairs use "negative free bids" such that a bid of 2 here is merely constructive and non-forcing, showing a good suit. In that case with (2) they would have to start with a double and bid their hearts later to show a good hand with 5.

Other pairs (my preference, by the way) would prefer to bid 2 on hand (2) to show partner the suit before the opps have a chance to raise the bidding too high. On hand (1) then we would start with a double. Again the opponents may raise the bidding, but we are likely to only be competing anyway, so we don't mind so much giving up if they go as high as 3 and partner has a minimum hand.
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#12 User is online   Curls77 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 13:19

Very nice post, ty all for helping us understand.

I have question about doubles with balanced hands. For example,
(p) - p - (1) - X
(1N) - p - (p) - X
Is this second X a takeout (to takeout from what?) or penalty oriented by a balanced hand (18-21) too strong to make direct 1NT overcall?
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#13 User is offline   dwar0123 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 19:27

View PostCurls77, on 2012-March-19, 13:19, said:

Very nice post, ty all for helping us understand.

I have question about doubles with balanced hands. For example,
(p) - p - (1) - X
(1N) - p - (p) - X
Is this second X a takeout (to takeout from what?) or penalty oriented by a balanced hand (18-21) too strong to make direct 1NT overcall?


It is still takeout, it does show extra strength compared to the first double but perhaps not as much as 18-21. I could envision a 15-17 count with a stiff or void in diamonds making this 2nd double in the pass out seat.
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