[nullve]

What I've been toying with lately:

1♣ = "4+ C, unBAL" / ?
1♦ = "4+D3-C, unBAL" / ?
1♥ = "4+H3-D3-C, unBAL" / ?
1♠+: several possibilites, see below.

If x<♠, then

1x-?:

1x+1 = "positive relay"
1x+2 = "negative relay"
(...),

1x-[1x+1]; ?:

2x-3 = "neither 1-suited nor canapé" / ?
...2x-2 = relay
......2y-2(y>x) = "(4)5+x4+y" / ?
.........2y-1 = INV+ relay
.........(...)
......(...)
...(...)
2x-2 = "1-suited" / ?
...2x-1 = INV+ relay
...(...)
2y-2(y>x) = "4+x5+y" / ?
...2y-1 = INV+ relay
...(...)
(...)

and

1x-[1x+2]; ?:

2x-2 = "neither 1-suited nor canapé" / ?
...2x-1 = relay
......2x = "limited, neither 1-suited nor canapé"
.........P: allowed
.........2x+1 = P/C
.........(...)
......2M(M>x) = strong, (4)5+x4+M, NF"
......(...)
2x-1 = "1-suited" / ?
2x = "lmited, (unknown) canapé"
...P: allowed
...2x+1 = P/C
...(...)
2M(M>x) = "strong, 4+x5+M, NF"
(...).

Some 1♠+ options:

1) ("balanced spade" system)

1♠ = BAL outside of 1N range
1N = some range, BAL
2♣ = "6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2♦ = positive relay)

2) ("nebulous spade" system)

1♠ = BAL outside of 1N range OR "6+ S, 1-suited"
1N = some range, BAL.

3) ("strong spade" system)

1♠ = 15+ BAL / "16+, 6+ S, 1-suited" / other strong options?
1N = 12-14 BAL
2♦(e.g.) = "10-15, 6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2♥ = INV+ relay).

-------------

Hopeless?

[awm]

Some problems:

1. You’re showing the wrong suits by opening a shorter minor in preference to a longer major. This is ok in unobstructed auctions but creates a lot of problems when opponents bid.
2. With two relays there is not much space for suit showing bids by responder. Sometimes the best contract is in responder’s five or six card suit and not clear you can find this unless he has a GF for full relay.
3. “Natural unlimited” openings can have trouble distinguishing the full range. Having more than the usual number of shapes won’t make it easier; even Fantunes started 1-red at 14+ and they had fewer shapes to deal with and the advantage of cheating....
4. Not clear where 4441/5440 patterns go in this structure.

[nullve]

awm, on 2018-January-18, 02:57, said:

Some problems:

1. You’re showing the wrong suits by opening a shorter minor in preference to a longer major. This is ok in unobstructed auctions but creates a lot of problems when opponents bid.
2. With two relays there is not much space for suit showing bids by responder. Sometimes the best contract is in responder’s five or six card suit and not clear you can find this unless he has a GF for full relay.
3. “Natural unlimited” openings can have trouble distinguishing the full range. Having more than the usual number of shapes won’t make it easier; even Fantunes started 1-red at 14+ and they had fewer shapes to deal with and the advantage of cheating....
4. Not clear where 4441/5440 patterns go in this structure.

1. I agree, but the problems will likely be most severe after a 1♣ opening, when Opener hasn't denied any suit, than after a 1♦ opening, when he has practically denied clubs, allowing club bids to be ART in auctions such as 1♦-(P)-1♥-(2♠); 3♣. To alleviate the problems after 1♣, Roman Twos could be used, although I'm not sure they would solve more problems than they create. (Btw, here's one form a "Roman spade" system might take. )
2. I think there's just about enough space for full relays on GF hands (see below), but finding most major fits on partscore deals is a problem I need to solve.
3. See below for an attempt to solve this problem.
4. It's not clear to me either, but one vague idea (which might ultimately not work) is that the since the structures 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1♠; 1N+ and 1♣-1♦; 1N+ are supposed to be kind of mirror images or each other, but it's clearly better to use the latter for 5C5O hands (especially 5C5M hands, so that 5-3 M fits aren't missed), the former can take care of 4C(441) hands. Similarly, the 1♦-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣+ structure could take care of 4441 hands.

Here's how I imagine fleshing out the structure after the positive relay (and I suppose something similar can be done after 1♠-1N, depending on how the opening is defined) when Opener has an unbalanced hand in the "10-21" range:

1♣-1♦; ?:

1♥ = catchall
...1♠ = relay
......1N = "10-18, (4)5+C4+D"
.........P = allowed
.........2♣ = INV+ relay
............2♦ = "10-12"
............2♥ = "16-18"
............2♠+ = "13-15"
.........2♦ = to play opposite "10-15", GF opposite "16-18"
.........(...)
......2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+C4+M"
.........2M-1 = INV+ relay
............2M = "10-12"
............2M+1 = "19-21"
............[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2M = "16-18, (4)5+C4+M" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
1♠ = "10-21, 6+ C, 1-suited" OR "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
...1N = INV+ relay
......2♣ = "10-12"
......2♦ = "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
.........2♥ = relay
............2♠ = "5+C4D"
............2N = "5+C5+D"
............3♣+ = "4C5+D"
......2♥ = "13-15"
......2♠ = "19-21, 1-suited"
......2N+ = "16-18"
...(...)
1N = "10-18, 4+C5+D"
...P = allowed
...2♣ = INV+ relay
......2♦ = "10-12"
......2♥ = "16-18"
......2♠+ = "13-15"
...2♦ = to play opposite "10-15", GF opposite "16-18"
...(...)
2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, 4+C5+M"
...2M-1 = INV+ relay
......2M = "10-12"
......2M+1 = "19-21"
......[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2M = "16-18, 4+C5+M" (NF)
2N+ = ?

1♦-1♥; ?:

1♠ = catchall
...1N = relay
......2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+D4+M"
.........2M-1 = INV+ relay
............2M = "10-12"
............2M+1 = "19-21"
............[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2M = "16-18, (4)5+D4+M" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
1N = "10-21, 6+ D, 1-suited"
...2♣ = INV+ relay
......2♦ = "10-12"
......2♥ = "13-15"
......2♠ = "19-21"
......2N+ = "16-18"
...(...)
2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, 4+D5+M"
...2M-1 = INV+ relay
......2M = "10-12"
......2M+1 = "19-21"
......[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2M = "16-18, 4+D5+M" (NF)
2N+ = ?

1♥-1♠; ?:

1N = catchall
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+H4+S"
.........2♥ = INV+ relay
............2♠ = "10-12"
............2N = "19-21"
............3♣+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2♥ = ?
......2♠ = "16-18, (4)5+H4+S" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
2♣ = "10-15/19-21, 6+ H, 1-suited"
...2♦ = INV+ relay
......2♥ = "10-12"
......2♠ = "19-21"
......2N+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2♦ = "10-15/19-21, 4+H5+S"
...2♥ = INV+ relay
......2♠ = "10-12"
......2N = "19-21"
......3♣+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2♥ = "16-18, 6+ H, 1-suited" (NF)
2♠ = "16-18, 4+H5+S" (NF)
2N+ = ?

As you can see, there's also a lot of space available for unbalanced hands with "22+". Maybe not enough for full relays, but at least much more than after a standard strong 2♣ opening.

Added 27 January:

Spoiler

System with nebulous 1♠ and weak-only 2-openings:

1♣ = "10+, 4+ C, unBAL"
1♦ = "10+, 4+D3-C, unBAL"
1♥ = "10+, 4+H3-D3-C, unBAL"
1♠ = "10+", 6+ S, 1-suited OR 11-13/17+ BAL
1N = 14-16 BAL
2♣+ = weak-only preempts

1♠-?:

1N = to play opposite 11-13 BAL, also with "0-6", 5+ H
...P = 11-13 BAL
...2♣ = 17-19 BAL ("delayed Mexican")
......P = "0-6", usually 5+ C
......2♦ = "0-6", 5+ H OR GF
.........2♥ = 2-3 H or 3433
............P = "0-6", 5+ H
............2♠ = GF relay
...............2N = 4-5 S, not 4333
...............(...)
............(...)
.........2♠ = 4-5 H, not 3433
............2N = GF relay
...............3♣ = 4S4H
...............(...)
............(...)
............3♦ = "0-6", 5+ H ("retransfer")
............(...)
......2♥ = "0-6", 4 H
.........P = 3-4 H
.........2♠ = 4+S2H
.........2N = 3S2H
.........(...)
......2♠ = "0-6", 4S3-H
.........P = 3-4 S
.........2N = 2 S
.........(...)
......2N = "0-6", 3-S3-H5-D4-C
......3♣ = "0-6", 3-S3-H5D4C
......3♦ = "0-6", 3-S3-H6+D
......(...)
...2♦ = "10-15", 6+ S, 1-suited / 20-22 BAL
......2♥ = "10+"
.........2♠ = "10-12"
.........2N = 20-22 BAL
.........3♣+ = "13-15"
...2♥ = "19-21", 6+ S, 1-suited / 23+ BAL
......2♠ = sign off opposite 6+ S
.........P = 6+ S
.........2N = 23-25 BAL
.........3♣+ = 26+ BAL
......2N = GF relay
.........3♣ = 23+ BAL
.........3♦+ = 6+ S
...2♠ = "16-18", 6+ S, 1-suited
...(...)
2♣ = "10+", (4)3-S5+ H / GF
...2♦ = "10-15/19+, 6+ S, 1-suited"
......2♥ = INV+ relay
.........2♠ = "10-12"
.........2N = "19+"
.........3♣+ = "13-15"
...2♥ = 11-13/17-19 BAL, either 2-3 H or 3433 OR "10-12", 6+S3H
......P = < GF, 5+ H
......2♠ = relay, usually with slam interest also opposite 11-13
......2N = relay, no slam interest opposite 11-13
......(...)
...2♠ = 11-13/17-19 BAL, 4-5 H, not 3433
......2N = relay, usually with slam interest also opposite 11-13
......3♣ = relay, no slam interest opposite 11-13
......(...)
...2N = 20+ BAL
...3♣+ = "16-18, 6+ S, 1-suited"
2♦ = "7+", either 4+S4+H or 5+ S
...2M = 11-13 BAL, PREF
......P = < iNV, 4+S4+H
......2♠ = to play, 5+S(4)3-H
......(...)
...2N = ART GF
...(...)
2♥ = "7-9", 5+ H
...P = 11-13 BAL, either 2-3 H or 3433
.. 2♠ = "10-15, 6+S2-H"
...2N = ART GF
...(...)
2♠ = "0-6", 5+ S
...P = 11-13/17-19 BAL, either 2-3 S or 4333
...(...)
(...)

1♠-1N; 2♣-2♥; 2♠-?: / 1♠-2♣; 2♥-2♠; ?:

2N = 4-5 S, not 4333
...3♣ = relay
......3♦+ = A(♠). See A(M) below.
...(...)
3♣ = 5D(332), 3244 or 3343
...3♦ = relay
......3♥+ = B(♦). See B(m) below.
3♦ = 4M333
...3♥ = relay
......3♠ = 3433
......3N = 4333
...(...)
3♥+ = B(♣). See B(m) below.

1♠-1N; 2♣-2♠; 2N-?: / 1♠-2♣; 2♠-2N; ?:

3♣ = 4S4H
3♦+ = A(♥). See A(M) below.

A(M):

3♦ = 4M4C
...3♥ = relay
......3♠ = 4M4C23
......3N = 4M4C32
...(...)
3♥ = C(M). See C(x) below.
3♠ = 4M4D23
3N = 4M4D32
B(m):

3♥ = C(m). See C(x) below.
3♠ = 4D4C, 3 cards in the major with the same shape as m
3N = 4m333

C(x):

3♥ = 5x(332)
...3♠ = relay
......3N = 5x233
......4♣ = 5x323
......4♦+ = 5x332, zoom

1♠-2♣; 2♥-2N; ?:

3♣ = 11-13
...3♦ = relay
......3♥ = 4-5 S, not 4333
.........3♠ = 3 S
............3N = 11-13, 4 S
............4♠ = 5 S
.........3N = to play
......3♠ = 11-13, 3433
......3N = 3-S3-H
3♦ = 17+, 4-5 S, not 4333
...3♥ = relay
......3♠+ = "A(♠)+2" except with zoom from 4♦
3♥ = 17+, either 5D(332), 3244 or 3343
...3♠ = relay
......3N+ = "B(♦)+2" except with zoom from 4♦
...(...)
3♠ = 17+, 4M333
...3N = relay
......4♣ = 3433
......4♦+ = 4333, zoom
...(...)
3N+ = 17+, "B(♣)+2" except with zoom from 4♦

1♠-2♣; 2♠-3♣; ?:

3♦ = 11-13, not 4S4H
...3♥ = 3 H or 4 S
......3N = 4 H
......4♥ = 5 H
...3♠ = 5+ S
...(...)
3♥ = 4S4H
...3♠ = relay
......3N = 11-13
......4♣ = 17+, 4423
......4♦+ = 17+, 4432, zoom
...3N = to play opposite 11-13
...(...)
3♠+ = "A(♥)+2" except with zoom from 4♦

Added 3 February:

Spoiler

System with Kokish-ish 1♥ opening and nebulous 1♠:

1♣ = "10+, 4+ C, unBAL" / ?
1♦ = "10+, 4+D3-C, unBAL" / ?
1♥ = "10+, 4+H3-D3-C, unBAL" / 17-19 BAL / ?
1♠ = "10+, 6+ S, 1-suited" / 11-13/20+ BAL / ?
1N = 14-16 BAL
2♣+ = weak-only preempts

1♥-?:

1♠ = "positive relay", but now GF opposite 17-19 BAL
...1N = catchall, but now also with 17-19 BAL
......2♣ = relay
.........2♥ = 17-19 BAL
.........other: as above
......(...)
...2♣+: as above
1N = "negative relay", but to play opposite 17-19 BAL
...P = 17-19 BAL
...2♣+: as above
(...)

1♠-?:

Similar to what I added 27 January, but strong balanced range starting at 20 hcp instead of 17 hcp. (Have to think more about the details, but maybe

1N = to play opposite 11-13 BAL, also with "0-3", 5+ H
...P = 11-13 BAL
...2♣ = 20-22 BAL ("delayed Mexican")
......P = "0-3", usually 5+ C
......2♦ = "0-3", 5+ H OR GF
.........2♥ = 2-3 H or 3433
............P = "0-3", 5+ H
............2♠ = GF relay
...............2N = 4-5 S, not 4333
...............(...)
............(...)
.........2♠ = 4-5 H, not 3433
............2N = GF relay
...............3♣ = 4S4H
...............(...)
............(...)
............3♦ = "0-6", 5+ H ("retransfer")
............(...)
......2♥ = "0-3", 4 H
.........P = 3-4 H
.........2♠ = 4+S2H
.........2N = 3S2H
.........(...)
......2♠ = "0-3", 4S3-H
.........P = 3-4 S
.........2N = 2 S
.........(...)
......2N = "0-3", 3-S3-H5-D4-C
......3♣ = "0-3", 3-S3-H5D4C
......3♦ = "0-3", 3-S3-H6+D
......(...)
...2♦ = "10-15", 6+ S, 1-suited / 23-25 BAL
......2♥ = "10+"
.........2♠ = "10-12"
.........2N = 20-22 BAL
.........3♣+ = "13-15"
...2♥ = "19-21", 6+ S, 1-suited / 23+ BAL
......2♠ = sign off opposite 6+ S
.........P = 6+ S
.........2N = 26+ BAL
......2N = GF relay
.........3♣ = 23+ BAL
.........3♦+ = 6+ S
...2♠ = "16-18", 6+ S, 1-suited
...(...)
2♣ = "7+", (4)3-S5+ H / GF
...2♦ = "10-15/19+, 6+ S, 1-suited"
......2♥ = INV+ relay
.........2♠ = "10-12"
.........2N = "19+"
.........3♣+ = "13-15"
...2♥ = 11-13/20+ BAL, either 2-3 H or 3433 OR "10-12", 6+S3H
......P = < GF, 5+ H
......2♠ = relay, usually with slam interest also opposite 11-13
......2N = relay, no slam interest opposite 11-13
......(...)
...2♠ = 11-13/20+ BAL, 4-5 H, not 3433
......2N = relay, usually with slam interest also opposite 11-13
......3♣ = relay, no slam interest opposite 11-13
......(...)
...2N+ = "16-18, 6+ S, 1-suited"
2♦ = "4+, 4+S4+H"
...2M = 11-13 BAL, PREF
......P = < iNV, 4+S4+H
......2♠ = to play, 5+S(4)3-H
......(...)
...2N = ART GF
...(...)
2♥ = "4-6", 5+ H
...P = 11-13 BAL, either 2-3 H or 3433
.. 2♠ = "10-18, 6+S2-H"
...2N = ART GF
...(...)
2♠ = "0-12, 5+S(4)3-H"
...P = 11-13 BAL, either 2-3 S or 4333
...(...)
(...)

?)

[nullve]

Maybe a similar "heart system",

1♣ = "10+, 4+ C, unBAL"
1♦ = "10+, 4+D3-C, unBAL"
1♥ = "10+, either 5+S4+H or 1-suited w/ 6+ H" OR 14+ BAL
...1♠ = "0-6/10+, relay"
......1N = 14-19 BAL (playable because Responder can't have "7-9")
......2♣ = "10-18, 6+ H, 1-suited" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
......2♦ = "10-18, 5+ S" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
......2♥ = "19-21, 6+ H, 1-suited"
......2♠ = "19-21, 5+ S"
......(...)
...1N = "7-9", to play opposite 14-16 BAL, GF opposite 17 BAL
......P = 14-16 BAL
......2♣ = 17+ BAL
......2♦ = "6+ H"
......2♥ = "10-15, 5+ S" (NF)
......2♠ = "16+, 5+ S"
......(...)
...(...)
1♠ = "10+, either 4+S5+H or 1-suited w/ 6+ S"
...1N = "0-6/10+, relay"
......2♣ = "10-18, 5+ H" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
......2♦ = "10-18, 6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
......2♥ = "19-21, 5+ H"
......2♠ = "19-21, 6+ S, 1-suited"
......(...)
...2♣ = "7-9, relay"
......2♦ = "5+ H"
......2♥ = "6+ S"
......(...)
...(...)
1N = 11-13 BAL
2♣+ = weak-only preempts,

is better? (It's not quite a strong heart, natural 1m system, but it's close.)

I guess it's possible to use the 1st and 2nd step as "0-6/10+" and "7-9" relays, respectively, also in response to 1m.

Added 30 January:

Spoiler

Under construction:

1♣-?:

1♦ = "0-6/10+, relay"
...1♥ = neither canapé nor 1-suited OR "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
......1♠ = relay
.........1N = "10-18, 4+ D" (=> 2♣ = "10+, relay")
.........2♣ = "10-18, 4+ H" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
.........2♦ = "10-18, 4+ S" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
.........2♥ = "19-21, 4+ H" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
.........2♠ = "19-21, 4+ S" (=> 2N = GF relay)
.........(...)
...1♠ = "10-21, 1-suited" OR "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
......1N = "10+, relay"
.........2♣ = "10-12", 1-suited (=> 2♦ = GF relay)
.........2♦ = "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
............2♥ = GF relay
...............2♠ = 4D5+C
...............2N = 5+D5+C
...............3♣+ = 5+D4C
.........2♥ = "13-15, 1-suited" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
.........2♠ = "19-21, 1-suited" (=> 2N = GF relay)
.........2N+ = "16-18, 1-suited"
............(...)
.........2♥ = "
...1N = "10-18, 5+ D" (=> 2♣ = "10+, relay")
...2♣ = "10-18, 5+ H" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
...2♦ = "10-18, 5+ S" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
...2♥ = "19-21, 5+ H" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
...2♠ = "19-21, 5+ S" (=> 2N = GF relay)
...(...)
1♥ = "7-9, relay"
...1♠ = neither canapé nor 1-suited
......1N = relay
.........2♣ = "10-15, 2- or 3-suited non-canapé"
............P = allowed
............2♦ = P/C
............(...)
.........2♦+ = "16+, either 2- or 3-suited"
......(...)
...1N = 1-suited
...2♣ = "10-15, (unknown) canapé"
......P = allowed
......2♦ = P/C
......(...)
...2♦+ = "16+, either 2- or 3-suited"
(...)

1♦-?:

1♥ = "0-6/10+, relay"
...1♠ = neither canapé nor 1-suited
......1N = relay
.........2♣ = "10-18, 4+ H" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
.........2♦ = "10-18, 4+ S" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
.........2♥ = "19-21, 4+ H" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
.........2♠ = "19-21, 4+ S" (=> 2N = GF relay)
.........(...)
...1N = "10-21, 1-suited"
......2♣ = "10+, relay")
.........2♦ = "10-12" (=> 2♥ = GF relay)
.........2♥ = "13-15" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
.........2♠ = "19-21" (=> 2N = GF relay)
.........2N+ = "16-18"
......(...)
...2♣ = "10-18, 5+ H" (=> 2♦ = "10+, relay")
...2♦ = "10-18, 5+ S" (=> 2♥ = "10+, relay")
...2♥ = "19-21, 5+ H" (=> 2♠ = GF relay)
...2♠ = "19-21, 5+ S" (=> 2N = GF relay)
...(...)
1♠ = "7-9, relay"
...1N = neither canapé nor 1-suited
......2♣ = relay
.........2♦ = "10-15"
............P = allowed
............2♥ = P/C
............(...)
......(...)
...2♣ = 1-suited
...2♦ = "10-15, (unknown) canapé"
......P = allowed
......2♥ = P/C
......(...)
...2♥+ = "16+, 2- or 3-suited"
(...)

This post has been edited by nullve: 2018-January-31, 08:19