alert explanations when to stop
#1
Posted 2009-July-10, 11:11
Example:
1) 2D (mini roman, alerted) 2NT alerted.
When asked, I simply say "asking for further clarification". I think it would be wrong to say, "asking for suit below the singleton".
2) 2H (weak) 2S alerted.
When asked, I say "forcing, usually natural." I do not say that I am supposed to show my length in that new suit, even though she might have 3 small. When further asked about "usually natural", I simply state that if the suit is not real, she has a big hand, not a psyche.
there are many other situations, where I feel I must stop short of telling them what partner's next bid will show. Am I right on this, or am I violating full disclosure? It seems only the less experienced opponents get irritated. Follow-up bids are alerted and fully explained, and after auction full explanations occur.
#2
Posted 2009-July-10, 11:33
You are not required (in fact, I would go further - not permitted) to provide information about potential follow-up actions. Your explanation should be limited to the meaning of the call made, not all of the ramifications that follow thereafter.
I have been told that you are not supposed to ask (and, if asked, not supposed to answer) questions about bids that have not been made. So, questions like "what would a 1♠ bid have meant instead of the bid that you made?" or questions about future bidding after a conventional call are not appropriate. I am not sure about this - perhaps others could add their knowledge about questions concerning bids that have not been made.
#3
Posted 2009-July-10, 11:57
Quote
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#4
Posted 2009-July-10, 12:00
2007 Laws said:
[snip]
F. Explanation of Calls
- During the auction and before the final pass, any player may request, but only at his own turn to call, an explanation of the opponents’ prior auction. He is entitled to know about calls actually made, about relevant alternative calls available that were not made, and about relevant inferences from the choice of action where these are matters of partnership understanding. Except on the instruction of the Director replies should be given by the partner of the player who made the call in question. The partner of a player who asks a question may not ask a supplementary question until his turn to call or play. Law 16 may apply and the Regulating Authority may establish regulations for written explanations.
- After the final pass and throughout the play period, either defender at his own turn to play may request an explanation of the opposing auction. At his turn to play from his hand or from dummy declarer may request an explanation of a defender’s call or card play understandings. Explanations should be given on a like basis to 1 and by the partner of the player whose action
is explained.
- Under 1 and 2 above a player may ask concerning a single call but Law 16B1 may apply.
As you see, questions about relevant calls not made are definitely permitted.
However care must be taken - the reference to Law 16B1 is about unauthorised information given by a question. But this is as true about calls that have been made - the usual example from the club is:
1♣, alert,
"what is that?" - "natural or balanced, 2+♣, non-forcing"
"how many clubs does it show?" - "two or more"
"so it may just be 2 clubs?" - "yes"
"2C" - not alerted
#5
Posted 2009-July-10, 12:02
ArtK78, on Jul 10 2009, 12:33 PM, said:
I believe that is was once the case in ACBL that you were not permitted to ask about bids not made, things like "what would it have meant if you had bid 2♠ instead of 3♠?", but that this has changed so that it is now OK to ask about alternative calls.
I do not know about asking about potential future bids. I can imagine that it could result in UI if not done very carefully. I once had an opponent ask me how high we played negative doubles in the situation at hand and after getting the answer make a bid one level higher. I'm sure his partner had more information than he would have had without the question. But, it also seems to me that the opponent who asked was entitled to the answer.
#6
Posted 2009-July-10, 12:05
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#7
Posted 2009-July-10, 12:11
#8
Posted 2009-July-10, 12:35
jdonn, on Jul 10 2009, 01:11 PM, said:
Unless by doing so, you are giving your partner information about your hand, or how to defend, etc..
I think Declarer can ask about everything under the sun.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
#9
Posted 2009-July-10, 15:40
Phil, on Jul 10 2009, 07:35 PM, said:
I think Declarer can ask about everything under the sun.
A defender is allowed whatever questions he likes, even if by doing so he reveals the entire contents of his hand. The rules don't restrict a player's right to ask questions: they just create consequences if these questions convey unauthorised information (or mislead an opponent).
The only exception is that you're not allowed to ask a question solely for partner's benefit.
#10
Posted 2009-July-10, 15:46
1S ALERT
opps asked, "asks for my singleton if I have a GF hand"
p 2C ALERT
shows a singleton club, and asks for my 6 card suit
p 2H ALERT
etc. The opps then complimented them on their fine system
#11
Posted 2009-July-10, 15:52
Of course you shouldn't explain the relay to mini-roman as "asking for the suit below the singleton". You could say "asks about distribution", and "asks for further clarification" is fine too. But what opps really want to know is what kind of hands relayer can have. In particular, does the relay show values?
As for the 2♠ response to 2♥ I think you examplantion is adequate. Of course if they ask for the full story, give it. I don't think such a 2♠ bid need to be alerted btw but I could be wrong.
#12
Posted 2009-July-10, 16:35
Jlall, on Jul 10 2009, 04:46 PM, said:
1S ALERT
opps asked, "asks for my singleton if I have a GF hand"
p 2C ALERT
shows a singleton club, and asks for my 6 card suit
p 2H ALERT
etc. The opps then complimented them on their fine system
a good system for cell block D
#13
Posted 2009-July-10, 20:10
helene_t, on Jul 10 2009, 05:52 PM, said:
I disagree. Asking a question implies that you need to know that specific information, which suggests things about the type of hand you have. Since partner can make that inference from your question, the opponents are entitled to make the same inference, so they need to know what question you're asking.
If you're not going to explain an asking bid in terms of what it asks, how are you going to explain it? Are they all just "forcing"? Is the description of Blackwood "Forcing, interested in slam"?
The only bids I can think of where you can really give such an empty description are relays. But if a bid asks a specific question, I think the opponents are entitled to know what that is.
#14
Posted 2009-July-10, 22:08
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#15
Posted 2009-July-11, 21:05
Sometimes the preceding auction narrows it down. For instance, sometimes the auction suggests that when partner asks for a stopper, he's likely to have at least half a stopper as well, because you had an opportunity to show a stopper earlier. In cases like this I'll say, "partner probably has a half stopper and and asks me to bid 3NT with help there."
But what can you say about partner's hand when he bids Blackwood?
#16
Posted 2009-July-11, 21:10
#17
Posted 2009-July-11, 23:06
#18
Posted 2009-July-12, 07:27
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#19
Posted 2009-July-12, 09:27
barmar, on Jul 10 2009, 09:10 PM, said:
helene_t, on Jul 10 2009, 05:52 PM, said:
I disagree. Asking a question implies that you need to know that specific information, which suggests things about the type of hand you have. Since partner can make that inference from your question, the opponents are entitled to make the same inference, so they need to know what question you're asking.
If you're not going to explain an asking bid in terms of what it asks, how are you going to explain it? Are they all just "forcing"? Is the description of Blackwood "Forcing, interested in slam"?
The only bids I can think of where you can really give such an empty description are relays. But if a bid asks a specific question, I think the opponents are entitled to know what that is.
1S-2C*
Explanation 1: "Asks whether partner has extras, and to start showing shape in case he has" (or just "GF relay")
Explanation 2: "game-forcing, either natural 2/1 or balanced GF"
Which explanation do you think is correct?
1N-(X)-XX*
Explanation 1: "Asks partner to bid 2♣"
Explanation 2: "Weak hand with two suits"
Which explanation do you think is correct?
I didn't make either example up.
#20
Posted 2009-July-12, 10:06