1♦ (P) 1♥ (2♣)
X (P) 2♠ (P)
3♣ (P) 3♠
Is 3♣ gf or 1rf?
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how do you play
#1
Posted 2009-July-14, 10:12
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
(still learning)
#2
Posted 2009-July-14, 10:17
How do you play the double? Support double, penalty, takeout, something else? In any case a cuebid like this by opener is generally game forcing, although some partnerships make allowances to stop in 4 of a minor if you look for 3NT but can't find it. 3♠ here is definitely forcing.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#3
Posted 2009-July-14, 11:18
I agree. 3♠ here is definitely forcing unless there is a lot of stuff we are not being told about the auction.
For example (and I don't mean to imply that this is the case), suppose that 1♥ was a transfer to spades showing length in spades. And suppose that the double of 2♣ was a support double. Now 2♠ would be a signoff, and 3♣ would be some sort of game try. 3♠ would then be a signoff again.
Otherwise, it is quite clear that 3♠ is forcing. The only reason I am trying to come up with a reason why it would not be forcing is that it seems so clear that it must be forcing in any standard bidding structure.
For example (and I don't mean to imply that this is the case), suppose that 1♥ was a transfer to spades showing length in spades. And suppose that the double of 2♣ was a support double. Now 2♠ would be a signoff, and 3♣ would be some sort of game try. 3♠ would then be a signoff again.
Otherwise, it is quite clear that 3♠ is forcing. The only reason I am trying to come up with a reason why it would not be forcing is that it seems so clear that it must be forcing in any standard bidding structure.
#4
Posted 2009-July-14, 11:59
Double is support, 3♥'s
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
(still learning)
#5
Posted 2009-July-14, 12:05
If double is support, then what is 2♠? I would play it as a game try in first instance (akin to 1♦ - 1♥; 2♥ - 2♠). I would also play it as natural (long suit). In that case, 3♣ would be a counter try of some sort.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#6
Posted 2009-July-14, 13:42
Echognome, on Jul 14 2009, 01:05 PM, said:
If double is support, then what is 2♠? I would play it as a game try in first instance (akin to 1♦ - 1♥; 2♥ - 2♠). I would also play it as natural (long suit). In that case, 3♣ would be a counter try of some sort.
Then unless opener must bid 3♥ any time he doesn't have four spades, the 3♠ bid is game forcing as opener hasn't confirmed a spade fit.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#7
Posted 2009-July-14, 14:09
Ah. I answered the question in Kathyrn's first post rather than the poll question. As I play it, then a new suit that forced us to game would change the game try to slam try.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
#8
Posted 2009-July-14, 14:18
3♠ is forcing, simply because 3♣ promised another bid.
Hi y'all!
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
#9
Posted 2009-July-14, 15:06
3♣ GF and therefore 3♠ is forcing.
It is possible in a practiced partnership to play 3♣ is only forcing to 3NT effectively allowing your side to play in 4m if you cannot find a stopper for no trumps. Perhaps even on this specific sort of auction you could agree that 3♦ could be passed if you do not have a club stopper and responder has to bid 4♦ forcing with a better hand or a good holding (shortage) in the opponent's suit.
We normally have the general rule that if we ask for a stopper via a cue-bid or 4th suit forcing and don't find one we can subside in 4minor otherwise we are GF.
It is possible in a practiced partnership to play 3♣ is only forcing to 3NT effectively allowing your side to play in 4m if you cannot find a stopper for no trumps. Perhaps even on this specific sort of auction you could agree that 3♦ could be passed if you do not have a club stopper and responder has to bid 4♦ forcing with a better hand or a good holding (shortage) in the opponent's suit.
We normally have the general rule that if we ask for a stopper via a cue-bid or 4th suit forcing and don't find one we can subside in 4minor otherwise we are GF.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#10
Posted 2009-July-15, 10:26
Hi,
since X is support, I would assume, that 2S showes
spades values, at least inv. values and should deny a
club stopper.
I am not sure, that 3C promises add. values, since 2S
is forcing, opener has to find a bid, and the question
is, what he bids with 4342 and 12-14.
But than 3C sounds like gf, and opener should bid 3H
with the weak NT hand, espesially if 2S denies a club
stopper (3C could still be asking for a half stopper).
With kind regards
Marlowe
since X is support, I would assume, that 2S showes
spades values, at least inv. values and should deny a
club stopper.
I am not sure, that 3C promises add. values, since 2S
is forcing, opener has to find a bid, and the question
is, what he bids with 4342 and 12-14.
But than 3C sounds like gf, and opener should bid 3H
with the weak NT hand, espesially if 2S denies a club
stopper (3C could still be asking for a half stopper).
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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