[shevek]

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - ?


IMPs, vul.
1♣ was 16+, 1♦ negative.
1♠ limited to 19 (else 1♥ to show 19+) & either 5+ or canapé minor.

Should responder consider raising with

♠K985  ♥T64  ♦543  ♣983 ?

If not, give me a sample minimum. Would it be different if 1♠ guaranteed five?

[dake50]

No. The raise should promise some chance for a second trick. Opener had 2S to ask for even one trick, didn't he?

[paulg]

In standard Precision I would consider this an automatic raise.

With the methods in use it still looks pretty normal to raise. Finding the fit may be all that partner needs to have a really big hand. There is still a 3♠ invitational raise for stronger hands.

Paul

[straube]

You should have two different ways to show spade support. For example
2D-good raise
2S-bad raise

If my choice is raise or pass, I'll pass reluctantly.

[jjbrr]

I've never really understood the fascination with making 1♥ a huge hand. Isn't it much, much more frequent that you just have hearts and want to bid them cheaply opposite a 0-7 hand? You should always be able to raise with support, especially when it may, in fact, be the opponents' hand. With my partners in this auction, I can show support in 5 different ways below the 4 level, with varying strength and support.

[PrecisionL]

jjbrr, on Oct 23 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

I've never really understood the fascination with making 1♥ a huge hand. Isn't it much, much more frequent that you just have hearts and want to bid them cheaply opposite a 0-7 hand? You should always be able to raise with support, especially when it may, in fact, be the opponents' hand. With my partners in this auction, I can show support in 5 different ways below the 4 level, with varying strength and support.

I agree. This is a simple raise with 1 trick and 3-4 trumps. Otherwise, responder bids 1NT with 2nd negative 0-4 and no trick. I don't think the 1♠ bid is limited to 19 pts in this Precision auction.

Anderson - Wei and Radin - Wei (Kathy) used this approach and I still do after 10 years.

[straube]

1C-1D, 1H as 19+ makes sense especially with a relay system; if responder has a semipositive, relays can commence.

But in the context of 1C-1D, 1H 19+ it makes more sense for 1C-1D-1S to be a multiple-meaning bid....not just spades.

1C-1D, 1S-1N-asks

2C-5-card clubs
2D-5-card diamonds
2M-4M, 6 unspecified minor
3m-6-card minor

for example, along with

1C-1D,
2C-5/4 or 4/5 majors
2D-unspecified 6-card major
2M-5M, 4m
2N-minors
etc.

In the problem we've been given, however, 1S denies 19 HCP and we only have the option of raising or passing. We're not dealing with an unlimited opening hand where we absolutely have to bid again. So the question is whether raising will get us too high (if opener invites or bids game) or whether by passing we'll miss out on too many games.

[awm]

I'd raise. Suppose partner had opened 1♠ in a strong club system and we had this hand plus an ace. I don't think many of us would pass. This is basically the same problem.

There are lots of hands where game is quite good. For example:

♠AQxxx ♥xx ♦AKQxx ♣x

♠AQxx ♥x ♦KQJxx ♣AQx

♠Qxxxxx ♥x ♦AKxx ♣AK

♠Axxx ♥KQx ♦AKQxx ♣x

Of course, it helps to have an alternate way to raise with a really max hand (i.e. four trumps and a seven-count) but those hands can afford the three-level and are what 3♠ (any maybe 2NT) is for.

[jjbrr]

straube, on Oct 23 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

In the problem we've been given, however, 1S denies 19 HCP and we only have the option of raising or passing.  We're not dealing with an unlimited opening hand where we absolutely have to bid again.  So the question is whether raising will get us too high (if opener invites or bids game) or whether by passing we'll miss out on too many games.

The opponents will make a partscore on this auction a pretty substantial amount of the time, so -50 or something isnt the end of the world. If OP can't raise spades here with a bad hand, then missing games isn't a concern either, as the hands are so well defined after a raise at this point it shouldn't be too hard to determine when to pass and when to game try or bid game, but only because the provided methods are very limited. The concern here is bidding enough to shut the opponents out but not having partner get too excited, which is impossible given the methods.

[Jlall]

I think raising is automatic. Just because we don't have enough POINTS for game doesn't mean partner can't have shape and we are just cold. Partner should understand this as a courtesy raise (with a much better hand bid something else like 3S).

Edit: I had this exact hand in a tournament recently playing this system except 1S was 5+.. I raised at MP and my partner game tried and we went down 1 lol.

[straube]

You folks have convinced me to raise. I still wish I had a good and bad raise option.

[benlessard]

I think the canape possibility here is too annoying and i would pass. The only hands that will make game are 2 suiters and the majority of them will be in canape for wich 2S might go down and if partner make a canape invite move (showing only 4S) you ll be disapointed.

My hope is that opener is less likely to have a real 5-5 /6-5 since opps didnt bid.

[athene]

A clear 2♠ in my opinion. Not only can partner have lots of hands which will make game easily, but if you pass, you let opponents in and then you have to go to 3♠ anyway.

[shevek]

jjbrr, on Oct 23 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

I've never really understood the fascination with making 1♥ a huge hand. Isn't it much, much more frequent that you just have hearts and want to bid them cheaply opposite a 0-7 hand? You should always be able to raise with support, especially when it may, in fact, be the opponents' hand. With my partners in this auction, I can show support in 5 different ways below the 4 level, with varying strength and support.

When you play symmetric relay, it makes sense to drop the structure on as many auctions as possible, once you 've done the hard learning yards -- not that hard really.

1♥ as 19+ stuffs hearts somewhat. We bring them back via

2♣ = Aspro, hearts & another, could be canapé
2♥ = 6+, 16-18

Relay is good to pickup the 19+6 games and slams, ideally right-siding and keeping the strong hand unknown.

After 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ (0-4)

opener can nestle in 1NT and other auctions are clearer too.