[Flame]

How do you bid unbalaced hand with diamonds and 18-21 hcp ?
As i see it since 1c-1d-2d show any GF you have no bid.
You can try 1nt, or 3d but its not a real solution.
Since there is no real bid, i am thinking why not playing 1d as 12-21 and only limit the majors to 17 hcp ?

[vang]

i think you'll have to choose between
- 3♦ with 6 card suit
- 1M with 5 diamonds and 4 in a major
- 1/2 NT with balanced and suitable hand

seems to be one of the weak points in polish.

[Flame]

I can also have 5d and 4c and i guess ill have to bid NT even with 5431.
with 5/5 minors i guess i can bid 2c, but i dont think i will ever show my diamonds.
Frankly it doesnt look to me like a system bug, more like no system, you decide to limit your 1d to 17 hcp but you dont have a bid to show 18+ hcp, so why do you limit it at all ?
I am reading the polish club system and i like it, but this is one weirdest things i have ever seen in a system, just like ill say my syac 1H is 12-16 and with 17-22 i will have no bid.
How does my alternative playing 1d as 12-21 1h/1s as 12-17 looks ?

[Syl20]

I agree with you.

I don't think the troubles arise after 1♣ 1♥/♠ since you can respond
2SA with 5431 and singleton in partner's suit OR 2♦ with 3+ cards in partner's.

What about 1♣ 1♦ continuations ? As vang previously said; either you're not afraid if partner pass with 5 HCP and bid your 4 card major (when in 18-19 range) or have to try 3♦ (compulsory with 6 cards for me) or 1/2NT with 18-20/21-22 and 5422. Remains the tricky 5431 hands in the 20-21 range.
No clearcut solution. I recommand (to myself ) to bid 1NT with these hands (even with 6322 and bad 6331). In case partner transfers in our singleton, it is then possible to reveal our shape by bidding 2NT with 5431 and diamonds or 3♣/♦ with the 6331:
e.g. after 1♣ 1♦ - 1NT 2♥ - ?
? = 2SA : 5♦(43)1♠
? = 3♣/♦ : 6♣/♦331♠

At last, i didn't mention the 5/5 and 16-19 HCP which are also badly described after 1♣ opening. From another bridge forum, someone recommands 2-way openings such that:

2♦ : 6-10 5♥+5♠ or 16-19 5♥+5 in another
2NT : 6-10 5♣+5♦ or 16-19 5♦+5 in a black suit

This should underload some hands of the 1♣ opening.

[the hog]

"No clearcut solution. "
Yes there is - read Matula. It is not a solution I really like, as I prefer different 2 level bids.

[Syl20]

The_Hog, on Jun 19 2004, 04:16 AM, said:

"No clearcut solution. "
Yes there is - read Matula. It is not a solution I really like, as I prefer different 2 level bids.

I heard a lot about Matula but i can't find it.
Could you please explain roughly his thoughts about 1♣-1♦ developements when opener holds diamonds (6 bad or 5+4Maj and 20+) ?
I am also interested in your favourite 2 level openings ?

[the hog]

Syl,
Matula suggest a "high tech" 2D Multi opening
weak 2 in a M
or 18-21 with long Ds and secondary H or C

I played this briefly to see if it workable, and it is.

The reason we don't use it is because I play Tutti Frutti 2 bids, which I described fully in a previous thread. (You will have to search for this). These openings are great fun and very effective.

So with long D and a 4 card M we use the traditional style.

Cheers
Ron

[Flame]

The_Hog, on Jun 21 2004, 05:36 PM, said:

Syl,
Matula suggest a "high tech" 2D Multi opening
weak 2 in a M
or 18-21 with long Ds and secondary H or C

2D - 2H
3c = ♦ + ♣
3d = ♦ + ♥
right ?

looks good.
How much in the suits do you need ?
atleast 6-4 or will 5-5 or 5-4 be good enough ? ( i think 5-5 must be enough, not sure about 5-4)

[the hog]

Very quickly
2D 2H/S
2N = long Ds and 4H, (5-4 if suits are very good, generally 6-4)
3C = 5D + 4C
3D = 6D + 4C

Over these rebids, resp's 3D is nf
Over 2N relay, opener's strength showing bids are 3N (D+H), 4C (D+C)

Matula couples with this the following openings:
2H = 5/5, one M one m
2S = Ms or ms
2N = weak m pre
3C/D = sound pre empts

[Syl20]

Thanks for your answer The Hog.
Sounds like a good alternative for 2/3rd of these tricky hands.

I could then think of including the same hands with spades (giving up the weak 2 spade option) such that:

2♦= weak 2 in ♥ or 18-21 5+♦+4any
2♥= 5-10H, 5♥+5any
and 2♠=5-10H, 6♠ or 5♠+5♣/♦

Does this seem reasonnable ?
Sylvain

[pozeracz]

Level 2 polish openings:

wilkosz (most popular):
2d = 5+5+ at leats one major, 6-10 hcp
2h = 6+ hearts, 6-10 hcp
2s = 6+ spades, 6-10 hcp
2nt = 5+5+ minors, 6-10 hcp

mini multi
2d = 6+M, 6-10 hcp
2h = 5+h, 5+other suit, 6-10 hcp
2s = 5+s, 5+m, 6-10 hcp

tutti frutti
2d = 6+h or 5+s and 5+m, 3-10 hcp
2h = 6+s or 5+h and 5+m, 3-10 hcp
2s = 5+5+MM 5-10 hcp or 6+minor

dwukolorowki Zdzisia
2d = 6+h or 5+s & 5+d
2h = 6+s or 5+h & 5+c
2s = blacks or reds
2nt = majors or minors

Btw, strong two-suiters are disadvantage of wj2000 system, but are not a large problem if you bid for example "strefa" polish club system. However it depends on distribution of your hand. If you just started to learn wj2000 I recommend you Dan Neill translation. I think it is not necessary to learn other versions, even the best, if no one will understand you during bidding, except the author ))) Of course if you use in your system level 2 multi opening it is not a problem: 2d= 6+M, weak or 18+ minor suit unballanced hand (other variations are 3 suiter or strong nt). But... than 2d has to be F1, and I do not like it.

[the hog]

"2♦= weak 2 in ♥ or 18-21 5+♦+4any
2♥= 5-10H, 5♥+5any
and 2♠=5-10H, 6♠ or 5♠+5♣/♦"

This is certainly workable. These D hands are a problem - this came up last night
KQTx
x
AKJTx
AQx
The bidding was 1C 1D 1S all pass
Opposite
xx
Qxxx
xx
xxxxx
I know where I would rather have played

[Flame]

I would have opened it 1d playing strefa.

[the hog]

Lol! So would I, but with this particular partner we were playing Matula's PC, not Strefa.

[Syl20]

Flame, on Jun 18 2004, 06:30 AM, said:

How do you bid unbalaced hand with diamonds and 18-21 hcp ?
As i see it since 1c-1d-2d show any GF you have no bid.
You can try 1nt, or 3d but its not a real solution.
Since there is no real bid, i am thinking why not playing 1d as 12-21 and only limit the majors to 17 hcp ?

After your answers, some thoughts and discussions, i finally made up my mind.
I agree that the best compromise should be to extend 1♦ up to 21 HCP rather than include it in options of the 2-level openings because:

(1) it lowers the options of multi 2-level opening and thus enables direct obstruction after a 2 way-bid which garantees a suit (such as 2♦=6-10H and 6♥ or 16-19H and 5♥+5any after the auction 2♦ 4♥ bidder N°4 might have some critical decisions)

(2) some bids are free for use (1♦ 1NT 3♥/♠/NT) and can be assigned to describe these critical hands with 5+♦+4any in the 18-21 range.

(3) these hands with diamonds can also be bid by 1♣ 1♦ 1NT (with some 5♦422 or 6♦322 and good doubleton(s) when ♦ are bad or even with 6♦331 or 5♦431 with stiff honour)