[Oren Goren]

I have now read the WJ2005 ( WJ05 ) file on www.bridgewithdan.com.systems and can report that the missing hands in the BBO Convention Card are also missing there.

Hunh?

oren

[TimG]

The description of the Natural Variant is "15-17 HCP club-based hands which are not suited for the 1NT opening". There is no example or mention of 4=4=1=4 hands. In the section "How do you show a medium variant of the 1♣ opening (15-17)?" there is mention of the auction 1♣-1♥, 1♠-1N, 2♣ with the description that this shows 4 spades and 5+ clubs. I suppose you would raise 1♥ with 4=4=1=4, so this doesn't mean that this shape is excluded. But, there is no mention in the section involving 1♣-1M of opener's rebid to show support in the 15-17 range. At least none that I see.

I have agreed with my WJ05 partners to play weak and strong splinter raises after 1♣-1M, similar to the approach after a 1M opening. The "weak" splinters correspond to the 15-17 1♣ variety and the strong splinters to the 18+ 1♣ variety. We have not explicitly said that these weak splinters may include 4=4=1=4 shape, but it seems to make sense.

I guess we have incorrectly been describing the natural 1♣ variant as 15-17, unbalanced with at least 5 clubs.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

I am not defending description of wj2005. Maybe Jassem made a mistake of omitting those hands. What I am saying is this :
a)every polish player playing polish club including Jassem will open 4=4=1=4 shape with 1C and won't consider it "problem hand". It's just standard like opening 1D with 2-3-4-4 shape in SAYC. There are many varietes of wj you open 1C with that hand in all of them (excluding some 25+years old in which you had special 2D opener for 3 suited hands)
b)same applies to 4=4=4=1 and 1D opener
c)as to (41)=4=4 shape:
These days almost all players open this 1D. Old school was to open 1C with red singleton and 1D with black one. I don't really see the point but it was the way in old polish club systems.

Jassem did make a note of 4=4=0=5 hands. Those are opened with 1C not 2C. This one is not "obvious" in the sense that some polish club players would open this hand with 2C.
I hope that helps.

[Oren Goren]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Quote

Bluecalm is telling us that those hands will be opened 1C (and that he hates the 4+ card 1D). So, don't know if it is the translator missing part of Jassem's description or what, unless Bluecalm tells us in a post I haven't read yet.

I am not defending description of wj2005. Maybe Jassem made a mistake of omitting those hands. What I am saying is this :
a)every polish player playing polish club including Jassem will open 4=4=1=4 shape with 1C and won't consider it "problem hand". It's just standard like opening 1D with 2-3-4-4 shape in SAYC. There are many varietes of wj you open 1C with that hand in all of them (excluding some 25+years old in which you had special 2D opener for 3 suited hands)
b)same applies to 4=4=4=1 and 1D opener
c)as to (41)=4=4 shape:
These days almost all players open this 1D. Old school was to open 1C with red singleton and 1D with black one. I don't really see the point but it was the way in old polish club systems.

Jassem did make a note of 4=4=0=5 hands. Those are opened with 1C not 2C. This one is not "obvious" in the sense that some polish club players would open this hand with 2C.
I hope that helps.

I responded to this post earlier, bluecalm, but it hasn't shown up and once again the forum software took me to your post as being unread.

I was giving you your deserved due, not criticizing you.

When I wrote jassem about the problem he concisely said open 1C.

When I pointed out that the convention card and the file both don't include the hands in any opening bid he wrote back saying the card does say to use 1C for these unbalanced
hands with that HCP range.

Are we all insane?

Or is he just being a ... well, you know.

Are there two cards?

oren

[DJNeill]

Hi all,
From the english text in the "12-14" 1C variant section:

"I don’t recommend opening 2C (Precision) with both 4-crd majors. Practice shows it’s better to open 1C, and bid as if we have 4414 distribution."

Thanks,
Dan

[DJNeill]

bluecalm, on Dec 22 2009, 08:31 AM, said:

There is even official poll for polish players regarding changes in wj2010:
http://ankieta.jassem.pl/

Unfortunately it's only in polish. I don't know when its due but I think it will be in 2010

Hi all,

It's free registration to vote and you get to see the current poll results for each question though not sure our answers have any official bearing on the final product.

Thanks,
Dan

[PrecisionL]

Open 1♣ says Matula in his 1994 book (The Polish Club), page 13:

"In your normal system, what do you open holding 4-4-1-4 distribution (a three suiter with short diamonds)? The answer is probably 1♣, most of the time. In Polish Club we always open such hands with 1♣, regardless of strength. For the purpose of this presentation, let's define the second meaning of a 1♣ opening in our system as:"

Honor strength: 12-18 points"
Distribuition: 4-4-1-4 (short diamonds)"

Larry

[Oren Goren]

PrecisionL, on Dec 23 2009, 06:52 AM, said:

Open 1♣ says Matula in his 1994 book (The Polish Club), page 13:

"In your normal system, what do you open holding 4-4-1-4 distribution (a three suiter with short diamonds)? The answer is probably 1♣, most of the time. In Polish Club we always open such hands with 1♣, regardless of strength. For the purpose of this presentation, let's define the second meaning of a 1♣ opening in our system as:"

Honor strength: 12-18 points"
Distribuition: 4-4-1-4 (short diamonds)"

Larry

Thanks, y'all.

As I noted in another forum in response to bluecalm's explanation of the background of WJ2005's strong 1NT, weak NT in 1C:

The real structural problem is the insistence on 5M.

4441 or 5440, any suits, are all A-OK if the 5 is not clubs, but surely could treat them as 4.

1C: 15-17 bal/ 15+ 4+ Cs / 18+ any.
1N: 12-14 HCP.

1D/H/S: 11-17 4+. (1D poss w/5 Cs)

oren

[bluecalm]

There may be many problems with polish club but those 4-4-1-4 hands are not one of them. Just open 1C and hope for the best. I can't remember getting one stupid result because of this and i play this system all the time. Changing the system from 5card majors to 4card majors because of basically nonexistent problem would be pointless.

THere are more systems which huge design flaws which would benefit from the change though. Try SAYC or 2/1