[hrothgar]

so, I tried the no knead bread recipe.
This is brilliant stuff...

Just finished off the first ever GOOD loaf of bread that I have ever baked

I used the following recipe
http://www.nytimes.c...ng/081mrex.html

Here's the ingredients by weight rather than volume

400 grams bread flour
8 grams salt
1 gram instant yeast
1.3333 cups of water

I am a piss poor baker, and this recipe turned out phenomenal
(bakery good)

[1eyedjack]

May try it one day but to be frank can't be arsed to wait 14-20 hours. Bought a breadmaking machine a few years ago. Cost next to nothing and have only come down in price since. Does all the kneeding for me, so that ain't no great shakes, and stops the flour going all over the shop.

[Gerben42]

If bread making machines are so popular, shouldn't there be a market for selling bread in the USA?

When visiting I have a hard time finding things like:



or

[JoAnneM]

That looks like bread you can find in almost any San Francisco bakery.

[hrothgar]

1eyedjack, on Feb 14 2010, 12:05 AM, said:

May try it one day but to be frank can't be arsed to wait 14-20 hours. Bought a breadmaking machine a few years ago. Cost next to nothing and have only come down in price since. Does all the kneeding for me, so that ain't no great shakes, and stops the flour going all over the shop.

For me, the main issue is not necessarily the ease of production, but rather the flavor.

The loaves that I've been turning out the last couple days have tasted absolutely brilliant... (Of course, I have nothing against easy or idiot proof, cause my baking skills are pretty minimal)

[1eyedjack]

I can agree with that. This recipe sells itself on the ease of production, but if it tastes great as well then, well, great. I wonder what the effect would be if you used their ingredients AND kneaded it in a machine. I guess there is only one way to find out.

[helene_t]

Well the ingredients are just normal white-bread ingredients, so if you put it in the machine you will get normal white bread.

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on Feb 15 2010, 04:35 PM, said:

Well the ingredients are just normal white-bread ingredients, so if you put it in the machine you will get normal white bread.

Not quite:

This recipe is based on a very long, slow fermentation which can have a very significant impact on the flavor.

More over, the baking process is very different from the one used by a bread machine. This technique produced a dough with a high water content. When you drop it into the sealed cast iron pot you produce a lot of steam. In turn, this impacts the development of the crust. (Professional bakers have ovens that will automatically inject steam into the oven. Normal ovens / bread machines can't duplicate this)

[hotShot]

The first thing I was told to have a shape memory was called Wonderbread.
If you crush it like a shock absorber, it just jumps back into shape.
This kind of industrial white bread, has lots of additives that make the bread softer and prevent crumbling. Because of the crumbling the bread does not have a real crust.

And the best thing of e.g. French Baguette is it's crust.

[hotShot]

hrothgar, on Feb 15 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

(Professional bakers have ovens that will automatically inject steam into the oven.  Normal ovens / bread machines can't duplicate this)

Putting a small pan with a thin layer of water on the bottom of the oven, helps to emulate the steam in a normal oven.

[helene_t]

hrothgar, on Feb 15 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

helene_t, on Feb 15 2010, 04:35 PM, said:

Well the ingredients are just normal white-bread ingredients, so if you put it in the machine you will get normal white bread.

Not quite:

This recipe is based on a very long, slow fermentation which can have a very significant impact on the flavor.

Yes I know that the process is strange, but 1eyedjack suggested using the same ingredients which are completely normal.

[hotShot]

I'd say that the process is similar to the preparation of sourdough that is used for rye.

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on Feb 15 2010, 05:07 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Feb 15 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

helene_t, on Feb 15 2010, 04:35 PM, said:

Well the ingredients are just normal white-bread ingredients, so if you put it in the machine you will get normal white bread.

Not quite:

This recipe is based on a very long, slow fermentation which can have a very significant impact on the flavor.

Yes I know that the process is strange, but 1eyedjack suggested using the same ingredients which are completely normal.

My expectation is that if you took the same ingredients and ran it through a bread machine, the end result would be nothing like what the recipe I used produced...

[1eyedjack]

I frequently use the bread machine just to take the drudgery out of the kneading process, then take the mix out of the machine to shape and bake it. I guess I could leave it to ferment for longer as well.

But in my experience, I have yet to come across a bread which does not improve with kneading, and the more the merrier. Interesting if this is an exception.

[keylime]

I just realized, this was not about the folk group Bread....

[jjbrr]

I apologize for the necro, but I'm curious if some years of experience has improved anyone's technique enough to offer advice.

I, too, am hopelessly bad at baking. Cakes and cookies terrify me, and I'm not much of a dessert person, so this is OK. Having said that, I jumped on the No Knead wagon and have had some great results. Specifically, I've let the dough ferment in the fridge for maybe 10-13 days, placed a boule in an oiled, 12" Lodge cast iron pan, let it rise for a couple hours, and then pressed it down to make some excellent pan pizzas. I've never had criticisms for either taste or texture. For my personal preference, the pizzas are excellent.

However, when I want to make a traditional loaf I can't quite get the right balance between hard exterior and light interior. Mine end up too dense inside, even doughy sometimes.

I mean, my goal is to achieve this:


but my results always end up like this:


Are my measurements off? My equipment? Something else?

I use
6.5 cups flour
1.5 T fast acting yeast (2 packets)
1.5 T coarse kosher
3 cups lukewarm water

I bake at 450F for 30-35 on a cookie sheet with parchment.

Hrothgar et al, if you read this, is the dutch oven and/or pizza stone necessary for the right texture? Is a water bath in the oven necessary for steam for the perfect loaf?

[onoway]

jjbrr, on 2013-April-28, 20:25, said:

I apologize for the necro, but I'm curious if some years of experience has improved anyone's technique enough to offer advice.

I, too, am hopelessly bad at baking. Cakes and cookies terrify me, and I'm not much of a dessert person, so this is OK. Having said that, I jumped on the No Knead wagon and have had some great results. Specifically, I've let the dough ferment in the fridge for maybe 10-13 days, placed a boule in an oiled, 12" Lodge cast iron pan, let it rise for a couple hours, and then pressed it down to make some excellent pan pizzas. I've never had criticisms for either taste or texture. For my personal preference, the pizzas are excellent.

However, when I want to make a traditional loaf I can't quite get the right balance between hard exterior and light interior. Mine end up too dense inside, even doughy sometimes.

I mean, my goal is to achieve this:


but my results always end up like this:


Are my measurements off? My equipment? Something else?

I use
6.5 cups flour
1.5 T fast acting yeast (2 packets)
1.5 T coarse kosher
3 cups lukewarm water

I bake at 450F for 30-35 on a cookie sheet with parchment.

Hrothgar et al, if you read this, is the dutch oven and/or pizza stone necessary for the right texture? Is a water bath in the oven necessary for steam for the perfect loaf?

You don't have to have either a dutch oven or pizza stone to get the texture. If you want to bother, you can mist the loaf from time to time while it's baking and/or (easier) as Helene suggested, put a pan of water on the lowest shelf of the oven. It isn't essential for most bread though.

Most bakeries don't do this, some specializing in some types of french bread have special fittings in the ovens to push steam in. I don't know that you will ever get precisely the same flavour bread you would get in France anyway because the flours are different, and the water makes a difference as well.
You can make very good bread without it though.

Just make sure that it doesn't dry out while rising.. bakeries do use low levels of steam in something called a proofer to help the yeast breads rise before it goes into the ovens, also not necessary for an excellent loaf at home.

It looks to me as though the top is baking before the bottom is done. You might try lowering the oven temp a bit, try 400 degrees. Use a low rack in the oven. You have quite a lot of salt in the recipe and salt retards rising, so make sure the loaf is risen properly before you bake it. Length of time out of the fridge has little to do with it.

Actually I would knead the bread lightly when it was about half risen after it came out the fridge just to make sure the dough had an even temperature throughout and wasn't cold on the bottom where the air can't warm it as it can the dough just covered by saran or a cloth or whatever you use.Actually that might be the source of your problems right there. If you are keeping it in a cast iron pan to raise it,when it comes out of the fridge I would get it out of there and into a stainless steel or warmed glass/ ceramic bowl. Even then I would knead it just a bit after a while to make sure it was warmed evenly.

Not much kneading.. half a minute or so should do it.

Kneading a whole lot isn't necessary.Once you've got the gluten developed with the first mixing/kneading if you want a slightly finer grained/flavoured loaf just let it rise and knock it down a couple of times before you make it up for the pan and final rising. I don't usually bother.

It also likely wouldn't do too much for this type of bread which has had a chance to develop full flavour in the fridge.Too much kneading can also cause problems but bread is usually pretty forgiving.

[onoway]

1eyedjack, on 2010-February-15, 09:11, said:

I frequently use the bread machine just to take the drudgery out of the kneading process, then take the mix out of the machine to shape and bake it. I guess I could leave it to ferment for longer as well.

But in my experience, I have yet to come across a bread which does not improve with kneading, and the more the merrier. Interesting if this is an exception.

I've never used a bread machine but find that it is easier and faster to mix it by hand than to use a mixer, though admittedly messier. The one essential I wouldn't be without is a plastic scraper to scrape up the dough, otherwise it IS a pain. Robin Hood flour used to give them away but they're harder to come by now.

What really makes a difference is the flour. If you get the chance to try some RED FIFE wheat flour go for it. Hard to find as it is a heritage wheat but really worth it, the flavour is unbelievably good. I wouldn't have believed it 'til I tried it.

[hrothgar]

Few quick suggestions / comments

1. I've found that no-knead recipes are often quite sensitive to the ratio of yeast to salt. In particular, too much yeast can actually be a bad thing. Early in the process I tried increasing the amount of yeast under the "If a little is good, a lot has to be better" theory. It didn't work well (I think that it impaired the formation of the long gluten strands)

2. Slashing the top of the bread is more important than I would have thought (Slashing the top really helps the bread to spring up when its in the oven)

3. You need a good way to transfer the bread from your bowl to your cast iron baking vessel. (If you drop it, you'll loose a lot of C02). Best technique that I have found is lining your bowl with parchment paper rather than cloth, then lowering the whole bundle into the cast iron pot.

[hrothgar]

Oh yeah, can't emphasize this enough.

Measure dry ingredients by weight rather than volume.

400 grams flour
8 grams salt
2 grams yeast
1 and a third cups of water