[Flame]

You open 2♦ multi weak major and the opponents happend to bid your suit, do you have to double or you just double when you got a good suit ?
example from yesterday
2♦ X p 2♠

now my partner had J10xxxx in spade and didnt double, i told him he has to double or else i will think he got hearts and might compete, and also if im strong we might catch them on misfit.
Was i right ?

[Free]

Do you want partner to lead ♠ with JTxxxx? No, so why does he need to Dbl?? Great lead would be the K from Kx, and you gave away a nice trick to opps...

Since opps don't know (and can't know) what suit I have, you shouldn't give them any clues. Further bidding should make clear to partner what suit to lead, and if they want to play 2♠ in my suit, let them...

[inquiry]

To answer this question, you have to ask what your partner's pass over 2♦X meant, and what the meaning of the other options mean.

I play,

2♦ - X - XX = ♦'s and values.
2♦ - X - 2♥ pass/correct as if no double
2♦ - X - 2♠ pass/correct showing ♥ values as if no double....
All other higher bids unchanged by dbl

So the question becomes, what does the pass show. It can not show good tolerence for ♥, else he would have bid 2♠ It can't show good ♠, esle he would have bid 2♥. I think pass here shows moderate values and willingness to compete. But what you play is up to you.

However, I am going to disagree with you on your treatment. With spades, I think your partner passes. When the bidding comes back to you, if you want to compete because you think partner has ♥'s, you double to inform him. If your partner has ♠, he passes, if he has ♥, he bids 3♥. This way, if you have ♠ and not ♥ in your hand you can pass.

Now if you had ♠ and not ♥ and values (to explain the pass), and your partner had ♥ and ♠ shortness, he could double 2♠ (takeout - since you showed values) or pass. If he doubles, then now you have the option of passing that, or correcting to you long minor, assuming you have one.

This is how I play it.

[Flame]

Free, on Jul 23 2004, 08:02 AM, said:

Do you want partner to lead ♠ with JTxxxx?  No, so why does he need to Dbl??    Great lead would be the K from Kx, and you gave away a nice trick to opps...

Since opps don't know (and can't know) what suit I have, you shouldn't give them any clues.  Further bidding should make clear to partner what suit to lead, and if they want to play 2♠ in my suit, let them...

Yes lead is importent but imo its much less importent then the other factors i mentioned , partner will seldom have such a bad suit aheaded with J10.
Maybe you're right, ill think about it.

[Flame]

Ben , i thought i mentioned it before we play my pass as showing diamonds.
I'll have to think about your suggestions, maybe its better.

[Flame]

As i see it, passing with the spade suit when the bid spade, you gain one of two things:
By free's system you can distiguege between good 6 card and bad 6 card, helping partner with the lead and maybe with competeting.
By Ben's system you gain the takeout double by the 2Dder with something like 1633
On the other hand by always doubling with spades, you give your partner your suit and he then can double with other meaning then "pass with this suit or bid ur suit" this double can be set to be penaly or takout with 2 minor suiter.
Also when they bid partner's major and he double, we are more likely to catch them when im strong and there is a misfit (in Ben's system i will pass those hands let them play undouble).

[irdoz]

I'd always played Dixon defense versus multi. This is a defence against a multi 2D that a Dutch friend gave me. I like it because I have found some good penalty x's with this defense.

It's structure over 2d is:

Double = opening values with 5+ in one of the majors
2H = opening values with 5+ clubs
2S = opening values with 5+ diamonds
2NT = 16-19 balanced, with a stopper in both majors (and systems on, so puppet/transfers)
3X = 7-11 with a 6-card

Basically if the bidding goes 2D - double, then all subsequent doubles of a major show shortness in that suit.

Some examples:

2D Dbl 2H Dbl = Heart shortness, 4+ spades and about 9+hcp
Pass ?

If dbler has hearts, they can happily pass and with spades they can bid a number of spades, show a 2nd suit, cuebid hearts or make a splinter bid.


2D Dbl 2S Dbl = Spade shortness, 4+ hearts and about 9+ hcp
Pass ?

If dbler has spades, again they can pass and with hearts they can bid hearts, show a 2nd suit, cuebid spades or make a splinter bid.


2D Dbl 2H Dbl = Heart shortness, 4+ spades and about (+ hcp
2S ?

Now with something like Qx or Kx, dbler can double for penalties, knowing that South has 4+ spades and 9+ HCP. With very short spades or 2 little spades, North can bid 2NT, with 15+ 3NT, or 3H with good hearts.



If the bidding goes:

2D Dbl Pass ? or
2D 2H Pass ? or
2D 2S Pass ?

A 2NT bid by advancer is Lebensohl.

This automatically implies that if advancer bids a new suit at the 3-level, this is GF (an acceptance of 3 in North's transfer suit is of course the weakest possible response).

If the bidding goes:
2D Pass 2H A double by here is a take out
double with short hearts and
4+ spades.


2D Pass 2S A double by here is a take out
double with short spades and 4+
hearts.

Again a 2NT bid by advancer in this case is Lebensohl and a new suit at the 3-level is GF.

A special situation is:

2D 2H Pass 2S = 4+ spades and 10+ HCP



The main advantage of this defence is that it is almost always possible to double the multi for penalties and minimizes the risk to start bidding a major in the long suit of the multi 2D bidder.

The main disadvantage of the system is that with balanced 12-15 hands, you have to pass first, but usually you will get a 2nd chance in the balancing position.

[Flame]

thxs maybe we will play this too.

[1eyedjack]

Flame, on Jul 23 2004, 07:43 AM, said:

You open 2♦ multi weak major and the opponents happend to bid your suit, do you have to double or you just double when you got a good suit ?
example from yesterday
2♦ X p 2♠

now my partner had J10xxxx in spade and didnt double, i told him he has to double or else i will think he got hearts and might compete, and also if im strong we  might catch them on misfit.
Was i right ?

As already mentioned the meaning of responder's initial pass is relevant. But also of relevance is the meaning of the final double in the following scenario:

N.....E.....S.....W
2D...X.....P.....2S
P.....P.....X

Option 1: Penalty if opener has a weak 2H
Option 2: Penalty if opener has a weak 2S

I am not keen on opener automatically doubling with a weak 2S. The opponents almost certainly have a better place to play. So I lean in favour of option 2.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Jul 23 2004, 11:07 AM, said:

As i see it, passing with the spade suit when the bid spade, you gain one of two things:
By free's system you can distiguege between good 6 card and bad 6 card, helping partner with the lead and maybe with competeting.
By Ben's system you gain the takeout double by the 2Dder with something like 1633
On the other hand by always doubling with spades, you give your partner your suit and he then can double with other meaning then "pass with this suit or bid ur suit" this double can be set to be penaly or takout with 2 minor suiter.
Also when they bid partner's major and he double, we are more likely to catch them when im strong and there is a misfit (in Ben's system i will pass those hands let them play undouble).

Free's answer is totally wacky. You are the hand with the presumed spade suit, so partner will never be leading from ♠JTxxxx, add to that, if they stay in ♠ you will be on the lead.

Also, if you double ♠ for takeout or penalty, you tip the opponents off as to what is going on. If you double for penalty, all the intial doublers bids become scramble like. If you pass and he is short in ♠, your pass may turn all his weakish, escape bids into strong sounding bids...

I think you way over-rate the "giving your parnter your suit" issue. If you have ♠, they are in trouble in 2♠ if they bid out of spades, they will either find a ♥ fit and your partner will figure it out, or your partner will have enough ♥ and from the auction when they run out of ♠ figure it out. Giving your partner your suit here is way, way, over rated as a value. REmember, by not doubling makes their bidding much more complicated... is a new suit by doulbler game try, or run out of ♠ becasue it is your suit?

[paulg]

irdoz, on Jul 23 2004, 04:21 PM, said:

I'd always played Dixon defense versus multi. This is a defence against a multi 2D that a Dutch friend gave me.

Just for any readers who come across this at their club, it is a completely different version of Dixon ... or perhaps a different Dixon, that is the most popular defence played in the UK.

Double=13-15 balanced or very strong
2M=takeout of other major
2NT=16-19 balanced

Paul

[irdoz]

Opps - sorry my terrible writing.... I meant I had always played Dixon - but here's something totally different....

[Flame]

Ben i tends to agree with you and free that that your way is better because most of the time they will have more hcp and we will rarly want to catch them.
I didnt understand what you said about Free's idea, you said something like you showed the spade which i dont get, anyway free wanted to double when he got a good spade suit and pass when he got hearts or a bad spade suit, continuing just like you (double = pass with spades pull with hearts)

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Jul 24 2004, 02:09 AM, said:

I play,

2♦ - X - XX = ♦'s and values.
2♦ - X - 2♥ pass/correct as if no double
2♦ - X - 2♠ pass/correct showing ♥ values as if no double....
All other higher bids unchanged by dbl

I play something different:

2♦ (X) Pass = diamonds this way we can offer diamonds without having to play redoubled. This is important when I know we are going off but I think diamonds will be less off than the major.

2♦ (X) XX = bid your suit

2♦ (X) 2♥ = I have hearts (and I know you probably have spades but I am not interested)

2♦ (X) 2♠ = I have spades (and I know you probably have hearts but I am not interested)

You can swap the meaning of XX and 2Maj. In that case XX says I have my own major and I am not interested in yours please bid 2♥ and I will pass or correct. And 2Maj retains its normal pass or correct option.

I think it is useful to be able to run to your own suit after the opponents start doubling.

[EricK]

Flame, on Jul 23 2004, 12:43 PM, said:

You open 2♦ multi weak major and the opponents happend to bid your suit, do you have to double or you just double when you got a good suit ?
example from yesterday
2♦ X p 2♠

now my partner had J10xxxx in spade and didnt double, i told him he has to double or else i will think he got hearts and might compete, and also if im strong we might catch them on misfit.
Was i right ?

I don't think opener should have to double to show it is his suit.

I hardly ever play multi, nor indeed play against it. One hand which sticks in my mind, however, went

(2♦) 2♥ all pass. ♥ was of course their suit, but I still made my contract easily.
I know the auction you state isn't quite the same, but when the patrner of the multi bidder might have a weak hand, double could be a BIG loser.

Eric

[goodwintr]

The multi defense proposed in this thread (double with a good hand and a major suit, overcall 2H with a sound club overcall, overcall 2S with a sound diamond overcall, 3m overcall not as sound as the 2M version, etc.) has appeared in print -- Granovetters, Bridge Additions 96. Since we don't get much practice against multi in ACBL-land, I don't have much of a handle on the actual effectiveness of the defense.

TLGoodwin

[inquiry]

Flame, on Jul 23 2004, 08:50 PM, said:

I didnt understand what you said about Free's idea, you said something like you showed the spade which i dont get, anyway free wanted to double when he got a good spade suit and pass when he got hearts or a bad spade suit, continuing just like you (double = pass with spades pull with hearts)

Do you want partner to lead ♠ with JTxxxx? No, so why does he need to Dbl?? Great lead would be the K from Kx, and you gave away a nice trick to opps...

Since opps don't know (and can't know) what suit I have, you shouldn't give them any clues. Further bidding should make clear to partner what suit to lead, and if they want to play 2♠ in my suit, let them...

North East  South West

 2♦     DBL   Pass   2♠
 DBL    

---

This is the situation you described and free discussed. Free said "Do you want partner to lead ♠ with JTxxxx?" How can partner have JTxxxx if it is your suit? If they play in ♠, it will be your lead. How can partner had jtxxxx in your suit and they be bidding it?

[Fluffy]

There is a hidden problem about not knwoing partner´s suit:

If te bidding goes something like
2♦-X-2♠-3♠
p-5♣-???

now you can have 5♥ with good chancecs on playing at the 5 level if partner has ♥, but you don´t know.

[Cascade]

Fluffy, on Jul 25 2004, 12:59 AM, said:

There is a hidden problem about not knwoing partner´s suit:

If te bidding goes something like
2♦-X-2♠-3♠
p-5♣-???

now you can have 5♥ with good chancecs on playing at the 5 level if partner has ♥, but you don´t know.

What is 3♠?

[Flame]

Well Ben i dont get you, im talking about the situation they play in 3nt and the partner of the multi opener is on the lead, in this situation playing double or the multi opener showing a good suit rather then J10 will help his partner on the lead. Im not saying this is the most importent, but this is what free said and i make sense.