[paulg]

I play 2/1 as game forcing unless responder rebids his suit. This creates an issue when responder wishes to make a forcing rebid in his suit and the normal answer is to either bid a forcing 2NT or bid another suit.

A hand last weekend has left us wondering how we would bid some of these hands:

Scoring: IMP

---

Our auction was:
1♥   2♦
2♥   2♠
3♠   ?

My concern is that we will have the same auction if the hands were:

Scoring: IMP

---

And I wonder how we should differentiate between them in moving forward.

I think it is clear that 3NT is probably not a viable contract at this point, as you either have a 4-4 major fit or responder has three spades and a suit unguarded (else 2NT instead of 2♠). So this is available for something else (Serious/non-serious/cue bid/setting a suit).

How do you handle this?

Paul

[gordontd]

cardsharp, on May 9 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

I think it is clear that 3NT is probably not a viable contract at this point,

Doubtless I've missed something completely obvious, but I can't see how this is true of the given hands.

[655321]

I have sometimes played that

• 2NT shows a club stopper, denies four card spades.
  
• 3♠ shows four card spades, denies a proper club stopper
  
• 3NT shows a club stopper and four spades.

[paulg]

gordontd, on May 9 2010, 11:50 AM, said:

cardsharp, on May 9 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

I think it is clear that 3NT is probably not a viable contract at this point,

Doubtless I've missed something completely obvious, but I can't see how this is true of the given hands.

Perhaps I should have said that it looks difficult for the partnership to be confident that 3NT is the right spot, or even a fair spot, on such an auction.

Does 3NT promise a club stop, a half-stop, or could it be any 4252 or 3172 hand? When would West leave 3NT in?

So I think there is a case for using it as artificial.

[nige1]

655321, on May 9 2010, 06:13 AM, said:

I have sometimes played that

• 2NT shows a club stopper, denies four card spades.
  
  
• 3♠ shows four card spades, denies a proper club stopper
  
  
• 3NT shows a club stopper and four spades.

That seems cunning

[ONEferBRID]

I proposed a system ( which nobody uses ) some years ago when someone inquired about differentiating between a "Flannery type" hand vs a true Reverse hand ( w/4s and "extras" ) after a 1H opening and a 2m! 2/1 GF response:

♠ 7xxx
♥ AQJxx
♦ Kx
♣ Kx

♠ AKQT
♥ x
♦ AQxxxx
♣ QT


1H   -  2D! ( 2/1 GF )
2H!  -  2S! ( asks)*
3H*  -  3S ( sets trumps and asking for a courtesy cue )
4C  -  4NT ( thank you for that Cl Ctrl cue; must be A or K )
5D ( 1 key ) - 6S ( may have to rely on the Diam hook if no dK )

___________________________________________________

2H! = shows a minimum open with either (a) 4s or (b ) no 4s
*After the 2S!-asking what type of minimum:
2NT = (b ) no 4s
3C = (a) 4s and Cl shortness
3D = (a) 4s and Diam shortness
3H* = (a) 4 5 2 2

If Opener had "extras" , then the direct rebids over 2D! would be:
2S = true reverse, showing extras
2NT = no 4s, unbalanced, and extras
3H-jump, no 4s, 6+h and extras

[Winstonm]

If I understand the question correctly, it is how to differentiate between manufactured suit bids and real suit bids after having made a 2/1?

In theory, the choices seem limited if you are looking for a degree of simplicity.
1) Limit the damage by exluding one suit as never being artificial.
2) Use strong jump shifts as the initial bid with strong 1-suiters or the corollary that immediate jump shifts are invitational and slow rebids forcing.
3) Use 2NT as a catchall forcing bid.

Unless you are using Bergen, of the three choices the easiest is simply to use the strong jump shift.

[Fluffy]

I have a rule, when I bid a suit I don't really have, and partner raises, I run to 3NT if possible, partner will know what is going on. In your example I see no problem, since he knows you didn't bid 2NT because you don't stop clubs, hence if he doesn't wanna paly 3NT he can bid on.

[ONEferBRID]

2nd hand ( see my previous post for the system ):

♠ 7xxx
♥ AQJxx
♦ Kx
♣ Kx

♠ AKT
♥ x
♦ AQJxxxx
♣ QT

1H               -    2D!
2H!(min)       -    2S! ( asks, not tells )
3H!( 4 5 2 2 ) -   4D
4H! ( cue )      -   4S! ( cue )
5C!( cue )      -    6D

[pooltuna]

cardsharp, on May 9 2010, 05:38 AM, said:

I play 2/1 as game forcing unless responder rebids his suit. This creates an issue when responder wishes to make a forcing rebid in his suit and the normal answer is to either bid a forcing 2NT or bid another suit.

A hand last weekend has left us wondering how we would bid some of these hands:

Scoring: IMP

---

Our auction was:
1♥   2♦
2♥   2♠
3♠   ?

My concern is that we will have the same auction if the hands were:

Scoring: IMP

---

And I wonder how we should differentiate between them in moving forward.

I think it is clear that 3NT is probably not a viable contract at this point, as you either have a 4-4 major fit or responder has three spades and a suit unguarded (else 2NT instead of 2♠). So this is available for something else (Serious/non-serious/cue bid/setting a suit).

How do you handle this?

Paul

With the west hand make a sensible rebid of 2NT unless that promises something ridiculous in your system for this auction.