[mgoetze]

Playing 15-17 NT and inverted minors, you hold, say, Axx Kx AQx KQxxx and open 1♣. Partner, ever helpful, responds 2♣. How do you proceed?

[Free]

Depends on your agreements. For me 2NT shows 18-19 balanced with 4-5♣, easy as ever of course. Playing more standard agreements where 2NT is a minimum, I'd probably bid 2♦ and see what happens.

[655321]

Are you asking what to bid in a pickup partnership with no agreements, or asking what agreements you should make?

One method I have played that the step is a forcing enquiry, then responder shows inv, GF balanced, GF with shortage. Another is to play 2♣ forcing to 3♣, so opener can rebid 2NT with 11-14 balanced and with 18-19 balanced, responder bids 3♣ with his NF invitational hands.

[Fluffy]

2♦ is my GF relay, that's what I'd bid

[pooltuna]

mgoetze, on May 18 2010, 07:53 AM, said:

Playing 15-17 NT and inverted minors, you hold, say, Axx Kx AQx KQxxx and open 1♣. Partner, ever helpful, responds 2♣. How do you proceed?

assuming no agreements on 2♣ that makes 2NT the easy call

[jjbrr]

start with 2♦ and go from there.

[ONEferBRID]

mgoetze, on May 18 2010, 07:53 AM, said:

Playing 15-17 NT and inverted minors, you hold, say, Axx Kx AQx KQxxx and open 1♣. Partner, ever helpful, responds 2♣. How do you proceed?

I realize, especially here, that "real bridge players don't use Blackwood".
but hey, with at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in the outside suits and 18 prime hcp, you just need to find out about Ctrls:
1C - 2C! ( GF, promising 5+ cards ♣ )
4C!-jump ( Minorwood right out of Hardy's infamous yellow book ) - ??

With a 1 key card reply (4H) -- stop in 6C
With 2 key cards ( 4S ) -- press on with specific K-ask ( 5D = kickback for K's )

If the reply is 5S ( sK, denying hK ) -- press on with a 2nd K-ask--- 5NT

With the dK ( or a doubtfull singleton ♦ ), partner should bid 7C.
Without it... he should stop in 6C
..............In 7C, counting 2s, 2h, 3d, 5c and a ruff somewhere;
.............. you are down, however, if you have mirror hands ( 3 2 3 5 ) and partner has no outside Q.

[wank]

'real bridge players' require a source of tricks

[mgoetze]

ONEferBRID, on May 18 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

I realize, especially here, that "real bridge players don't use Blackwood".
but hey, with at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in the outside suits and 18 prime hcp, you just need to find out about Ctrls:
1C - 2C! ( GF, promising 5+ cards ♣ )
4C!-jump ( Minorwood right out of Hardy's infamous yellow book ) - ??

With a 1 key card reply (4H) -- stop in 6C

So what you are saying is that you want to be in slam with

Axx Kx AQx KQxxx
opposite
Jxx Qxx KJ AJxxx?

Personally, I prefer 3NT+1 to 6♣-2.

What I need to know is whether responder has a useful singleton/void, not how many keycards we have.

@655321: I am interested in both: what would you bid in a pickup partnership, and what would agreements would you like to have here (that also cater to more common handtypes).

[aguahombre]

Our normal agreements are that 2NT shows a max weak NT with the majors stopped and that 3NT shows 18-19 bal. HOWEVER, this opening bid has too many clubs, and is too good for slam in clubs to jump to 3NT.

So, 2D (not a gadget, just allegedly the start of a stopper probe) is fine. If responder now shows a bottom-range inverted hand, I can sign off in 3NT. Otherwise we are off to the races and can torture each other up to the club slam.

[mgoetze]

aguahombre, on May 18 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

If responder now shows a bottom-range inverted hand, I can sign off in 3NT. Otherwise we are off to the races and can torture each other up to the club slam.

So what exactly are responder's rebids, i.e. how does he show said bottom-range inverted hand?

[ONEferBRID]

mgoetze

Quote

So what exactly are responder's rebids, i.e. how does he show said bottom-range inverted hand?

That 8 loser hand ( Jxx Qxx KJ AJxxx ) it is only worth a limit raise of a 2D!-jump ( Criss-Cross ):
1C - 2D!-jump

[mgoetze]

ONEferBRID, on May 18 2010, 05:21 PM, said:

mgoetze

Quote

So what exactly are responder's rebids, i.e. how does he show said bottom-range inverted hand?

That 8 loser hand ( Jxx Qxx KJ AJxxx ) it is only worth a limit raise of a 2D!-jump ( Criss-Cross ):
1C - 2D!-jump

I normally wouldn't reply to this post but since it seems to be addressed to me: I can't follow you and have no idea what you are talking about.

[aguahombre]

mgoetze, on May 18 2010, 10:14 AM, said:

aguahombre, on May 18 2010, 05:06 PM, said:

If responder now shows a bottom-range inverted hand, I can sign off in 3NT.  Otherwise we are off to the races and can torture each other up to the club slam.

So what exactly are responder's rebids, i.e. how does he show said bottom-range inverted hand?

rebidding 3C is one quick way of showing a bottom-range unbalanced 2C bid. If partner starts going along with the stopper-showing thing and stays below 3D unless forced, she will be minimum.

p.s., I think onefer is interjecting an artificial 2D gadget over 1C, which neither of us happens to use. That is probably why it is confusing.

[whereagles]

assuming 3NT shows 18-19, that's what I have, so that's what I bid.

[Jlall]

I would bid 2N forcing and then go from there (if partner didn't sign off in 3C I know he was GF so I'd probably drive to slam, if he did sign off in 3C showing a LR then I will mess around and try to decide what to do).

If 2N is not forcing or I'm not sure then I would start with 2D and expect to have a terrible auction.

[peachy]

Playing 15-17NT and inverted minors (not GF 1m-2m), then 1C-2C-2NT is not forcing, nor is 3C, unless specifically agreed so. Start with a forcing 2D and see what partner says.

[ONEferBRID]

mgoetze, on May 18 2010, 11:27 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on May 18 2010, 05:21 PM, said:

mgoetze

Quote

So what exactly are responder's rebids, i.e. how does he show said bottom-range inverted hand?

That 8 loser hand ( Jxx Qxx KJ AJxxx ) it is only worth a limit raise of a 2D!-jump ( Criss-Cross ):
1C - 2D!-jump

I normally wouldn't reply to this post but since it seems to be addressed to me: I can't follow you and have no idea what you are talking about.

You asked what to do.... I assumed you were looking for a possible solution.

The minor suits "get no respect".

The Majors have a weak, constructive, limit, and a GF raise.

Inverted Minors covers only weak ( 1C - 3C! ) and GF ( 1C - 2C! ) raises.

The Criss-cross convention at least allows a limit raise for the minors ( 1C - 2D! jump or 1D - 3C! jump ).

[mgoetze]

ONEferBRID, on May 18 2010, 07:25 PM, said:

Inverted Minors covers only weak ( 1C - 3C! ) and GF ( 1C - 2C! ) raises.

Ah, I see now, you were trying to tell us that you play 1♣-2♣ as GF. That's not what I expect when I agree "inverted minors" and nothing more, however.

Meanwhile, it is nice to know responder's range a bit better, but I still need to find out his shape sometimes.

[barryallen]

aguahombre, on May 18 2010, 11:06 AM, said:

Our normal agreements are that 2NT shows a max weak NT with the majors stopped and that 3NT shows 18-19 bal. HOWEVER, this opening bid has too many clubs, and is too good for slam in clubs to jump to 3NT.

So, 2D (not a gadget, just allegedly the start of a stopper probe) is fine. If responder now shows a bottom-range inverted hand, I can sign off in 3NT. Otherwise we are off to the races and can torture each other up to the club slam.

That makes a lot of sense, 2♦ is always going to be forcing and although partner will not know exactly what is going on, should soon find out after your next bid. By which time you should both have a good understanding of each others holding and the confidence to go past 3NT in search of the slam