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inverted minors general opinions wanted

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 10:13

can you tell me as many variants as possible using this convention and advantages and disadvantages please and anything else you feel relevant to this topic
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#2 User is offline   xx1943 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 12:22

sceptic, on Jul 31 2004, 06:13 PM, said:

can you tell me as many variants as possible using this convention and advantages and disadvantages please and anything else you feel relevant to this topic

Hi

1) Inverted minors is best combined with weak notrump, when a minor-suit
opening shows balanced 15-20 or a good distributional hand.
2) You need an forcing minor-suit raise or what do you to bid an 1 holding
AKx, Kx, QJ109xxx, A
3) there are no disadvantages at all, when playing weak notrump.
If playing strong NT, you'll get rebid problems after 1minor 2 minor with a
balanced 12 pointer

Al
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#3 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 14:35

Everything hinges on whether the inverted raise denies holding a 4 card major. Something of a chicken and egg question, that is not restricted to inverted minor raises. Your optimal continuations depend on the definitions of the preceding bids, whilst the optimal definition of the preceding bids depends upon the available continuations. It tends to be an iterative process. You revise the continuations, then you revise the preceding definition to take best advantage of the continuations, then you further refine the continuations in light of the revised definitions, and so on.

It is a bit like climbing a mountain in a mountain range. You achieve the summit by a series of iterative steps. Only problem is there is another mountain out there with a higher summit.

I have had too much to drink.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

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Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#4 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 14:48

translator please
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#5 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 15:20

1eyedjack, on Jul 31 2004, 10:35 PM, said:

Everything hinges on whether the inverted raise denies holding a 4 card major. Something of a chicken and egg question, that is not restricted to inverted minor raises. Your optimal continuations depend on the definitions of the preceding bids, whilst the optimal definition of the preceding bids depends upon the available continuations. It tends to be an iterative process. You revise the continuations, then you revise the preceding definition to take best advantage of the continuations, then you further refine the continuations in light of the revised definitions, and so on.

It is a bit like climbing a mountain in a mountain range. You achieve the summit by a series of iterative steps. Only problem is there is another mountain out there with a higher summit.

I have had too much to drink.

hahahahahahaha

i personally don't like inv m, but i'm *wayyy* in the minority... i prefer 2m to be 'natural', showing the same thing 1h/2h would show

with the hand you posted, i play 3h as the forcing raise... with any treatment you lose something... with inv m you lose the direct raise... now i imagine most think that's an easy one to give up

all this presupposes a strong nt... playing 10-13 or 12-14, i can live with it
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#6 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-July-31, 18:05

sceptic, on Jul 31 2004, 04:13 PM, said:

can you tell me as many variants as possible using this convention and advantages and disadvantages please and anything else you feel relevant to this topic

I've played IM since I've played bridge basically. I find them very useful to a 5 card majors system, with or without 2/1.

A few things you should discuss with your partner before you play them:

1. The single raise is generally off over an overcall and double by the opps. It reverts back to the old fashioned 6-9 raise (weaker perhaps over a x). Over a double a neat gadget you can use is to reverse 3 of the minor and 2N over a double (3 minor = limit raise and 2N = weak raise). This gets the NT played from the correct side.

2. What is the dividing point for the single and double raise? I would suggest that the maximum for the double raise is about a 9 count, and the single raise is higher.

3. What do new suit rebids mean after the single raise? Do they show extra values? I play that they do not. Similarly, a rebid of the suit at the 3 level shows a 6-5, i.e., 1-2-2-2N-3.

A. A continuation of 2N by either partner. First - is it forcing? At matchpoints I would say no. At IMPs, make your own decision. Especially if you are playing a 15-17 NT, the ideal contract for a flat 13 opposite a semi-balanced 11 is 2N.

B. Discuss the continuations after 1 minor - 2 minor - 2 x - 3y. You can create some agreements that a bid of the 4th suit ask for a stopper, or shows a 1/2 stop. Practice with some hands.

C. Decide how many outside stops that a 2N rebid promises. Can it be made on a flat hand with a single stop? I prefer that 2N promise only one of the outside 3 suits stopped, otherwise hands like: xx, xx, AKQxx, KQxx are difficult to bid.

4. Can the single raise contain a 4 card major? While I expect some flame on this, I suggest that the single raise specifically deny a four card major, even a weak one. For a new partnership, it can just be too difficult to fish this out.

5. 1 minor - 2 minor - 3 minor should not be forcing. It shows a minimum and typcially has some shape, but not enough strength for a splinter.

6. Decide how many trumps a double raise promises. I don't mind 1-3 as being an unbalanced 4 bagger, with 2245 or 3145's.

Here's some ideas for improving IM's:

1. I like a jump shift in the other minor to show a limit raise and the single raise to be a game force.

2. A jump shift to the 3 level is a splinter. If the single raise is limit or better, this can get you a little high, which is one of the reasons I like "1". Also, try using 1 - 2 - 3 to show a stiff club.

3. Discuss if the single raise denies a stiff. A direct splinter can be used in 1 minor - 3 major, so its a question if the single raise denies shortness.

4. Even if you don't specifically play a lower level key card ask like minorwood or kickback, 1 minor - 2 minor - 4 minor should be key card. These auctions will allow you to explore for key cards comfortably below 5 of the minor.

5. If you want to foray into exclusion blackwood, play 1 minor - 2 minor - four of a suit to asks for key cards outside the suit bid.

6. There are some cutting edge ideas that I'm checking out. Grabel / Wittes play a very creative system where a 2 of a major rebid shows a specific hand type and allows opener to show different types of hands. These ideas are better suited to the adv / exp portion of this site.

I think you'll find that inverted minors greatly improve your game and slam bidding, while allowing you to push around your opponents with the double raise. Good luck.
"Phil" on BBO
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#7 User is offline   Cave_Draco 

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Posted 2004-August-01, 10:38

Put simply... 1m-2m is constructive; 1m-3m is pre-emptive, :D

There are problems with "short Club" but, mostly, "short Club" is a 4-card suit.

The 4-card major question only occurs with 5-card majors!, play Benj Acol and "Lo & behold!"


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#8 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-August-01, 19:54

Cave_Draco, on Aug 1 2004, 11:38 AM, said:

The 4-card major question only occurs with 5-card majors!, play Benj Acol and "Lo & behold!"

There are those who would open 1m in preference to 1M on some hands even when playing 4 card major openings. Leaving aside the issue of how to bid balanced hands with 4M+4m, in which I can see both sides, you would still normally open 1D rather than 1S when holding (eg) 4-1-5-3 shape, even playing 4 cards majors. If partner raises to 2D you need to decide whether to give up on the possibility of playing in Spades.

Incidentally, another factor that you need to consider when building your IM structure is whether IM should be game forcing or simply forcing for one round. Originally and classically it should just be forcing for one round (ie a game "try") but there are growing numbers of pairs who upgrade it to GF. To do so you have to work out separate ways of dealing with the game try (non-GF) hands, but having done that it certainly increases the accuracy of your GF auctions. The same argument is used as that to justify GF 2/1 responses, I guess.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 02:52

I find inverted minor a very interesting tool! Look at following hand:

Partner opens 1 (3+ card).

We know we want to play 3NT, but the easiest/safest way to get there is through 2 inverted minor, to find out if partner has controls in and . Otherwise you need some creativity and probably bid 1, or just blast in 3NT with the risk having 1 suit wide open...
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#10 User is offline   xx1943 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 03:38

Free, on Aug 2 2004, 10:52 AM, said:

I find inverted minor a very interesting tool! Look at following hand:

Partner opens 1 (3+ card).

We know we want to play 3NT, but the easiest/safest way to get there is through 2 inverted minor, to find out if partner has controls in and . Otherwise you need some creativity and probably bid 1, or just blast in 3NT with the risk having 1 suit wide open...

after partners rebid you know exactly what to do:

if partner bids 3 showing 12-14 HCP, 5!Diamonds a unbalanced hand. (Balanced he had opened 1NT; remember inv. minors are related to weak NT), you can try 3 and if partner now bids only 4 give up.

with 15-17 pd will rebid 2NT
with 18-20 pd will rebid 3NT

with 15+ and a biddable !-suit he will bid his lowest feauture 2, 2 or (unlikely) 3.

Inverted minors is a gameforce except 1minor - 2 minor - 3 minor

Sincerly

Al
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#11 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 07:05

Quote

There are those who would open 1m in preference to 1M on some hands even when playing 4 card major openings. Leaving aside the issue of how to bid balanced hands with 4M+4m, in which I can see both sides, you would still normally open 1D rather than 1S when holding (eg) 4-1-5-3 shape, even playing 4 cards majors. If partner raises to 2D you need to decide whether to give up on the possibility of playing in Spades.

You will never support minor when you have a 4-card major. This is independent of playing IM or not. ... or am I wrong here?
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#12 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 08:57

The variant I play is:

2m is a one round force only (10+ hcp).
3m is a pre-empt, usually 5-7 hcp and 5+ cards in the suit.

Both of these absolutely deny interest in playing in a major.

With an intermediate hand, bid 1NT. It takes a lot of tricks in a minor to beat 1NT in points, and opener should take back to 2 of a minor if he's got extreme length.

We've decided to show stops after 2 of a minor: 2H shows a heart stop, 2S shows a spade stop, 2NT shows both stops. This is useful for finding 3NT and slam, not so useful for finding 5m. A new suit by responder after the 2m bid is a cue bid asking about the bid suit.

I think if you're used to 2/1, it's better to play 2m as GF denying a 4 card major.
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#13 User is offline   xx1943 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 09:30

jtfanclub, on Aug 2 2004, 04:57 PM, said:

2m is a one round force only (10+ hcp).
3m is a pre-empt, usually 5-7 hcp and 5+ cards in the suit.

Both of these absolutely deny interest in playing in a major.

With an intermediate hand, bid 1NT.  It takes a lot of tricks in a minor to beat 1NT in points, and opener should take back to 2 of a minor if he's got extreme length.

We've decided to show stops after 2 of a minor:  2H shows a heart stop, 2S shows a spade stop, 2NT shows both stops.  This is useful for finding 3NT and slam, not so useful for finding 5m.  A new suit by responder after the 2m bid is a cue bid asking about the bid suit.

I think if you're used to 2/1, it's better to play 2m as GF denying a 4 card major.

This is exactly the definition in Kaplan-Sheinwold.
Except

Quote

With an intermediate hand, bid 1NT.  It takes a lot of tricks in a minor to beat 1NT in points, and opener should take back to 2 of a minor if he's got extreme length

1NT shows 6-9 HCP withou a four-card-major.
Opener bids always 2 or 2 if he has 12-14 HCP, because in that case he must have 5 in his minor or in rare cases 1444 or 4144.
Opener cannot have a balanced hand with 12-14 playing weak NT.

Is I said earlier inverted minors are at most suited with weak NT. :huh:

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#14 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 09:35

xx1943, on Aug 2 2004, 10:30 AM, said:

This is exactly the definition in Kaplan-Sheinwold.
Except

Quote

With an intermediate hand, bid 1NT.  It takes a lot of tricks in a minor to beat 1NT in points, and opener should take back to 2 of a minor if he's got extreme length

1NT shows 6-9 HCP withou a four-card-major.

Yeah, I didn't say it right.

What I meant to say was "With a hand too strong for 3m, but too weak for 2m, bid 1NT". There are other hands that go into 1NT too, besides those with good support for the minor.

Thanks.
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#15 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 10:53

kgr, on Aug 2 2004, 08:05 AM, said:

You will never support minor when you have a 4-card major. This is independent of playing IM or not. ... or am I wrong here?

There is certainly scope for so agreeing. There is also scope for agreeing otherwise.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#16 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 11:17

1eyedjack, on Aug 2 2004, 12:53 PM, said:

kgr, on Aug 2 2004, 08:05 AM, said:

You will never support minor when you have a 4-card major. This is independent of playing IM or not. ... or am I wrong here?

There is certainly scope for so agreeing. There is also scope for agreeing otherwise.

Agree to have four card major only with slam try hand.... (essentially a reverse).

ben
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#17 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 17:02

inquiry, on Aug 2 2004, 07:17 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 2 2004, 12:53 PM, said:

kgr, on Aug 2 2004, 08:05 AM, said:

You will never support minor when you have a 4-card major. This is independent of playing IM or not. ... or am I wrong here?

There is certainly scope for so agreeing. There is also scope for agreeing otherwise.

Agree to have four card major only with slam try hand.... (essentially a reverse).

ben

let's see if i understand this... after

1D : 2D
2S : 3H

does 3H show slam try or is it a NT look?
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#18 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 17:19

luke warm, on Aug 2 2004, 07:02 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 2 2004, 07:17 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 2 2004, 12:53 PM, said:

kgr, on Aug 2 2004, 08:05 AM, said:

You will never support minor when you have a 4-card major. This is independent of playing IM or not. ... or am I wrong here?

There is certainly scope for so agreeing. There is also scope for agreeing otherwise.

Agree to have four card major only with slam try hand.... (essentially a reverse).

ben

let's see if i understand this... after

1D : 2D
2S : 3H

does 3H show slam try or is it a NT look?

I am not suggesting you have to bid this way, but was only commenting on the meaning of an inverted minor when holding a four card major.

I am not fond of 2 on this auction showing spades, we will come back to that. But many people use 2 or 2 over minor suit raise to show stopper for NT, so 2 denies a stopper. If you play that way, there is no rush to bid 3 to show stopper, you can bid 2NT to find extra info when you have a heart stopper, and you right side potential nt contract.

What is best over minor raise?

1st step = minimum unbalanced hand, or any 4441 hand
2nd step = balanced with reason not to bid NT (forcing only to 2NT)
2NT = natural and forcing to 3 minor, could be huge
raise to 3 = 5+ in bid suit, minimum, but no singleton or void
1C-2C-2S and 1D-2D-3C=Balanced game force with 5+ of the minor
Jump shift, splinter
3NT=17-19 with only 3 of the minor opened
Jump to 4 of agreed minor=minorwood
Double Jumpshift=Exclusion RKCB

This is something fred once suggested and it seems to work very well.

Ben
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#19 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-August-02, 17:22

1D : 2D
2S : 3H

2S shows a S stop, denies a H stop. 3H shows a H stop, denies a C stop, shows beter than min - forcing to 4D at least. Could be move on a really big hand. Well, thats what I play anyway. Also in response to previous comments, 1m 2m definitely denies a 4 card Major, unless you play 2m as a gf as some do.

No reason whatsoever incidentally that inverted minors work better with a weak NT - that is a furphy.
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Posted 2004-August-02, 17:31

1D - 2D
2S - 3H

This is just last train principle. Opener denied a H stopper, so what else would you be looking for? At this point only 3NT
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