[mgoetze]

I'm sure gwnn will point out that this has already been discussed within the next 10 minutes.

[gwnn]

3S always, I don't think this has ever been discussed since it's so obvious

[ArtK78]

What do "Standard American" and "Puppet Stayman" have to do with each other?

I agree that 3♠ is clear here.

[kfay]

I'd bid either 3♠ or 4X where X != ♠.

Perhaps I'd bid 4♠ on some hand, I don't know.

[kenrexford]

With four spades, Opener bids 3♠, 4♣, 4♦, 4♠, or possibly even 4♥. Without 4♠, 3NT is the only option.

[mgoetze]

kenrexford, on Aug 30 2010, 07:33 PM, said:

With four spades, Opener bids 3♠, 4♣, 4♦, 4♠, or possibly even 4♥.

So, is it random or do you have some system for choosing one of these bids?

[karlson]

To me 3♠ shows 3, a min with 4 bids 4♠ and a max with 4 can cuebid. Not sure I'd call it "standard", in fact most people I've met don't play this way. But it's the way that makes sense to me and doesn't seem to have too serious of a downside (you can't offer 3n with a 4-4 spade fit seems to be the only real one).

[peachy]

3S clear. Admittedly there can be a slight difference of "good hand" vs "bad hand" for opener, but the range is only 2HCP. So if there is a difference and it is agreed 3S is not the obvious automatic bid, then 3S is stronger to leave room for investigation. Any time opener does not have 4-card spade suit, he must bid 3NT.

[aguahombre]

2NT is narrow range; now you are showing 4 spades. IMHO, there should be no super-accept ---time for responder to make any slam noises and stay out of her way. 3S ONLY.

Another point: after your 3S, 3NT serious

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-August-30, 13:06

[lexlogan]

aguahombre, on Aug 30 2010, 07:04 PM, said:

2NT is narrow range; now you are showing 4 spades. IMHO, there should be no super-accept ---time for responder to make any slam noises and stay out of her way. 3S ONLY.

Another point: after your 3S, 3NT serious

+1

[kenrexford]

mgoetze, on Aug 30 2010, 01:35 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Aug 30 2010, 07:33 PM, said:

With four spades, Opener bids 3♠, 4♣, 4♦, 4♠, or possibly even 4♥.

So, is it random or do you have some system for choosing one of these bids?

Depends on partner. But, generally:

4♠ = garbage. Response to 4NT RKCB would be worse than "two with the Queen." That alone is insufficient reason to bid that.

New Minor = two of the top three honors in this minor. 4432 with 4-card in that minor (possibly 5-card). Maximum possible control/cover count, with some ruffing value. For example, maybe ♠KQxx ♥xx ♦AKxx ♣AKJx. Six covers. a ruffing value, great clubs, great trumps. That's a 4♣ call.

3♠ = anything else.

[helene_t]

If we don't need superaccept because of the narrow range of 2NT we don't need serious 3NT either. Responder can cue with slam interest and sign off without. No need to say "I have slam interest if you have a suitable hand" because if there was such a thing as a "suitable hand" we might as well superaccept to show (or deny) it.

[aguahombre]

Depends. Serious allows opener to start lower with cuebidding. This might be important if responder has scattered second round controls and an open suit, but enough to be interested in slam. Besides, 3NT can have no other use when spades are known to be 4-4+.

Also, 3NT serious can say, "only start cueing if you have a max within the range", but you would have to discuss that option. In any case 3NT is forcing; we might still be looking for a Grand.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on Aug 30 2010, 09:51 PM, said:

Depends.  Serious allows opener to start lower with cuebidding.  This might be important if responder has scattered second round controls and an open suit, but enough to be interested in slam.  Besides, 3NT can have no other use when spades are known to be 4-4+.

If 3NT meant that, it wouldn't be "serious": it would be "asking for a cue-bid".

Quote

Also, 3NT serious can say, "only start cueing if you have a max within the range"

If 3NT meant that, it wouldn't be "serious": it would be "non-serious".

[gnasher]

helene_t, on Aug 30 2010, 09:44 PM, said:

If we don't need superaccept because of the narrow range of 2NT we don't need serious 3NT either. Responder can cue with slam interest and sign off without. No need to say "I have slam interest if you have a suitable hand" because if there was such a thing as a "suitable hand" we might as well superaccept to show (or deny) it.

We might need one but not both. If so, the obvious one to use is the serious/non-serious 3NT, because that approach avoids giving away information when it's just a game hand.

[JLOGIC]

I strongly believe opener should never bid 4C/4D/4H and should always bid 3S.

Mainly, I think giving away information immediately with 4C/4D/4H is bad, most of the time partner doesn't have a slam try and I would rather declare 4S without giving away that info. The times he does have a slam try, we're still low enough to cuebid effectively.

Also, 3S makes sure you declare the hand as the 2N opener. Over 4H there's no retransfer, and over 4D if 4H is a retransfer that hinders your slam bidding greatly. I'd rather have 4H be able to be last train/cuebid in some auctions, and that's possible if you don't have the need to retransfer anymore.

I could buy that the very worst hands for slam should bid 4S immediately over 3H, but it should be very rare and a warning sign to partner not to make a slam move. Perhaps it should show 2 keycards without the queen of trumps or something (like KJxx KQJ AQ KJxx). Basically then partner would know they need 2 with the queen to even consider moving which is useful.

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on Aug 30 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Aug 30 2010, 09:51 PM, said:

Depends.  Serious allows opener to start lower with cuebidding.  This might be important if responder has scattered second round controls and an open suit, but enough to be interested in slam.   Besides, 3NT can have no other use when spades are known to be 4-4+.

If 3NT meant that, it wouldn't be "serious": it would be "asking for a cue-bid".

Quote

Also, 3NT serious can say, "only start cueing if you have a max within the range"

If 3NT meant that, it wouldn't be "serious": it would be "non-serious".

That is why I rarely use names for things, and shouldn't have this time. 3NT is forcing; spades are trump; partners decide how to use 3NT and the follow-ups.

[Free]

Always 3♠ seems so obvious. You still have frivolous/serious 3NT, cuebids, you rightsided the contract,...

The only exception may be a very poor hand with a passed partner.

[fromageGB]

3♠ and when partner bids 3NT I alert and would describe as "requesting a control". We have "non-serious" on the card, but that only applies when the other party has not limited his hand. When, as here, I am strictly limited to a 2 point range, it has to be slam seeking but wanting me to cue first. The implication is that he has no club control and would like me to bid one.