[babalu1997]

I have seen a number of players who open a hand with 2 clubs, and then upon hearing a 2d waiting response, bid a 4 card suit. Their rebid, according to current sane standard should be no trump.

It sometimes happens with a 20+ hcp hand with 4-4-4-1 shape.

So trusting tha partner will rebid a 5 or 6 card suit, I will support that suit with 2 trumps and then the auction goes to 6 major with 6 trumps.

Well I have never seen any textbook or teacher tell anyone to open 2 clubs to rebid a 4 card suit.

When I mention this, the players will say that they cannot open a hand at 1 level which contains 20+ hcp. Same argument goes for 5-5 or 5-4 shaped hands.

The bad results do not seem to teach them.

Are there systems out there which profess this kind of opening?

[LeggyGodiv]

I know of no system that has 2C as strong, forcing, and artificial and requires / permits you to rebid a 4-card suit.

Sometimes with a 4-4-4-1 20-count, it is better to just open 2nt, esp. if that singleton is a King.

[blackshoe]

babalu1997, on 2010-November-23, 13:29, said:

When I mention this, the players will say that they cannot open a hand at 1 level which contains 20+ hcp. Same argument goes for 5-5 or 5-4 shaped hands.

Tell them to take up Precision then.

If they don't learn from their bad results, they're hopeless anyway.

[TylerE]

With one partner I bid 4 card suits frequently after 2♣-2♦(GF). Takes some getting used to but it has it's advantages.

[Siegmund]

Quote

Well I have never seen any textbook or teacher tell anyone to open 2 clubs to rebid a 4 card suit.

I actually believed that rebidding 2H with 1444/4414/4441 and 2S with 4144 was standard for several years after I learned bridge. It's not that I actually saw anyone do it, or show an example of a 4441 hand and explicitly say to bid the 4-card suit. But what all the beginner's books said was something like "after 2C-2D, rebid 2NT with a balanced 23-24, or 3NT with a balanced 25-27; with an unbalanced hand, bid your longest suit." So the bright beginner -- who knows what a balanced hand is, and who can figure out for himself that it's a waste of bidding space to go clear up to 3 of a minor with 4441 hands -- naturally concludes that rebidding your cheapest 4-card suit is the right thing to do.

Some people were aware it was a problem ... the ones who were busy persuading their partners to play Roman 2D, often with no upper point limit (which I played quite happily with several partners my first 2 years of duplicate, actually, though I've very rarely played it since.)

Opening 2NT on 4441 hands with a singleton honour was certainly much less fashionable 20 or 25 years ago, as was being willing to open at the 1-level with 23-point monsters (though there always 20s and bad 21s where it was the suggested bid.)

[P_Marlowe]

babalu1997, on 2010-November-23, 13:29, said:

<snip>
So trusting tha partner will rebid a 5 or 6 card suit, I will support that suit with 2 trumps and then the auction goes to 6 major with 6 trumps.
<snip>

While I would expect a good 5 card suit, raising the 5 card suit with only 2 trumps is also not something
I would expect, 5+2 makes only 7 and unless you show me a hand, were there is no sensible alternative to
the raise on two cards, I doubt there are many, if there are some, the blame for reaching 6 suit with not
enough trumps is also shared by you, if you make those raises.

You cant stop them doing certain things, that lead to desaster, but you can stop doing yoursefl, and this
can be started now.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

I only play 2♣-2♦-3M as a 4 card suit (but with longer ♦).

[Hanoi5]

So, which language has the same word for learn and teach?

[WellSpyder]

Hanoi5, on 2010-November-24, 04:44, said:

So, which language has the same word for learn and teach?

I think the use of "learn" to mean "teach" is quite widespread in dialects around England.

[mgoetze]

Hanoi5, on 2010-November-24, 04:44, said:

So, which language has the same word for learn and teach?

I think mostly eastern european languages. I know that Finns often make this mistake.

[helene_t]

Dutch and Danish also. And the two words are similar in German. But not in Portuguese.

[1eyedjack]

As in "that'll learn you, young maaarrsterr"

has to be said in broad west-country English "farmer" speak.

A frequent comment of mine to my partner at the bridge table, actually.

[han]

This is a very common mistake among Dutch people who speak English, so I'm glad to hear that it is also used in some English dialects.

[gwnn]

Hungarian has two similar words for teach and learn. In Romanian the two words are identical, but academic teaching is usually expressed with a different word. How is it in Spanish?

[ArtK78]

Perhaps more germane to this thread: Where did the idea that one had to open 2♣ on any 20 count originiate? I would be hard pressed to find any 4441 20 count that I would open 2♣ (much less most balanced or semi-balanced 20 counts). The same is true for most 21 counts. Once we get up to 22 HCP, opening 2♣ becomes necessary as partner could pass a hand where game is cold.

[pooltuna]

han, on 2010-November-24, 07:57, said:

This is a very common mistake among Dutch people who speak English, so I'm glad to hear that it is also used in some English dialects.

I am not sure why you are surprised I suppose Frisian has the same tendency as it arrived in the British Isles somewhere between the 5th and 8th century and comprises a large portion if not a majority of the English language.

[Phil]

han, on 2010-November-24, 07:57, said:

This is a very common mistake among Dutch people who speak English, so I'm glad to hear that it is also used in some English dialects.

Some 'mericans speak like that too which accounts for some recent election results.

[Fluffy]

gwnn, on 2010-November-24, 09:57, said:

Hungarian has two similar words for teach and learn. In Romanian the two words are identical, but academic teaching is usually expressed with a different word. How is it in Spanish?

Aprender = learn
Enseñar = teach

however

Dar clase = give lessons OR take lessons, when I tell people I give lessons they often think it is the contrary.

[pooltuna]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-24, 12:35, said:

Aprender = learn
Enseñar = teach

however

Dar clase = give lessons OR take lessons, when I tell people I give lessons they often think it is the contrary.

strikes me as weird as "dar" literally translates for me as "give" So I would assume you were the teacher. Of course you are the native speaker of Castillian and I cannot come up with words for take lessons ("tome clase" ???)

[kenberg]

If you are frequently ending in 4M in a six card fit probably one of you (at least) has to change his/her style.

Off hand, I cannot think of a book that gives any advice one way or the other on how to bid when I am dealt x/AKQx/AQJx/AKQx. It's not just a matter of playing in one of my suits or in no trump. If I bid 2C-2D-2NT, or, with my 25, a Kokish 2C-2D-2H-2S-2NT, partner should perhaps be forgiven for placing me in 4S holding QTxxxx/x/Kx/xxxx. Of course it may make. Truly I don't know how to bid the damn hand.

Fortunately these hand do not come up often.

Since the OP suggests that the rebid on 4 cards comes up somewhat frequently I assume she is not just speaking of the troublesome but infrequent 4-4-4-1 monsters. As a matter of fact, I am not that delighted to bid xx/AKQx/AQJx/AKQ as a no trump hand either, but I bite the bullet and do it. Opening a typical 1NT with xx somewhere is much safer because when partner raises to 3 he will have enough stuff so that there is a reasonable shot he can stop the xx suit, but on these 2C hands partner will put you in a nine trick contract when he holds three points. If the three points are the three missing jacks, this won't stop much. And if he has spade length a spade contract on a transfer auction is no bargain.

Anyway, I try hard to have five cards and I pray I do not get dealt the 25 point 4-4-4-1 hand.