"I'm out" Improper form?
#1
Posted 2010-December-02, 12:36
Curiously, the Laws tell us the proper form for a bid, a double or a redouble, but not, so far as I can see, for a pass.
#2
Posted 2010-December-02, 14:37
L20A and L74C1 also seem to be relevant.
To answer your initial question, I think I would say "maybe, it depends on the circumstances".
It's not uncommon to accept violations of proper form when spoken bidding is used:
"No bid"
"No"
"Four hartleberries"
"Three of the house"
I would put the onus on the caller to ensure that it's not misunderstood and doesn't pass UI. Otherwise, sanctions may be appropriate.
Edit: Having looked further, it seems you were referring to L19 and there you are correct. However, I wonder if that might have been deliberate to allow Brits to say "No bid" rather than "Pass", as the Orange Book permits (without reference to the Laws) in 7C2:
"a player can use “pass” or “no bid” but should not change from one to the other during a session".
This post has been edited by gordontd: 2010-December-02, 14:49
London UK
#6
Posted 2010-December-02, 18:30
Personally, I'd just as soon people didn't tap the table, and did put out their pass cards when it's their turn to call, they want to pass, and there have not yet been three consecutive passes.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#7
Posted 2010-December-03, 02:51
Bbradley62, on 2010-December-02, 15:46, said:
Not in general, no.
London UK
#8
Posted 2010-December-03, 03:33
#9
Posted 2010-December-03, 03:42
It appears now that the laws implicity leave the proper form(s) of Pass to regulatory authority and the EBU only does so obliquely, in Orange Book 7C2.
Quote
I think the TD will accept improper forms of Pass ("I'm out", "swish", knocking) only if it is not to the passer's advantage to do so.
Picking up the bidding cards at a players turn to call may be taken as a pass, if the player has a habit of doing so. Apparently, at the Tollemache Q, an auction finished: 4NT (choice of minors), X, P (no preference), P, picks up bidding cards.
The 4NT bidder had not noticed the X and thought the auction was over (muttering "stupid partner"). He was not in the habit of picking up his bidding cards in lieu of a Pass. His partner did not think it was proper to point out that it was the bidder's turn to call and they played in 4NT - declarer only knowing it was doubled when they came to the score.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#10
Posted 2010-December-03, 07:23
#11
Posted 2010-December-03, 12:12
To decide whether to allow the player to double, I think the director had to answer the questions:
- Has the player passed?
- If so, was it unintended?
I'm still not sure of the answer to the first question. Maybe the two questions go hand in hand.
#12
Posted 2010-December-03, 12:15
George Carlin
#13
Posted 2010-December-03, 13:14
The answer to Gnasher's first question then, depends on the player's answer to the TD's "what did you mean by 'I'm out'?" If he indicates he meant to pass, then he should be required to put out a pass card. If he indicates he was commenting on his values(!) but did not mean to pass, he should be required to make whatever legal call he intended to make. The comment itself is now a separate issue, may rate a PP, and will probably require the TD remind the player's partner of the UI laws.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#14
Posted 2010-December-03, 13:28
"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff
#15
Posted 2010-December-03, 16:29
I don't think the forcing nature of the pass was completely obvious, but the player who said "I fold" had three aces, and the auction was at the 7 level, so I think it's pretty uncontroversial that he would have wanted to double if he was in full command of his faculties.
I think it's just the same ruling as if he'd pulled out a pass card and then said it was unintended, he meant to double: the TD has to rule whether it's a 25A or 25B case and that's the end of it.
#16
Posted 2010-December-04, 10:08
gnasher, on 2010-December-03, 12:12, said:
- Has the player passed?
- If so, was it unintended?
I'm of the opinion that he has passed; I think the unintended part is much more difficult.
I once opened 1♠ and partner raised to 3♠ (limit). I thought for a bit about whether to make a slam try, eventually decided not to, and passed. A few moments later, I realized that I'd be playing in a partscore as a result. When I passed, I intended to pass from a mechanical perspective, it was not a case of inadvertently saying "pass" instead of "four spades". I thought, temporarily, that "pass" was equivalent to playing 4♠. I then realized my mistake. Even though I hadn't intended to play a partscore, I had intended to pass.
It seems to me that there are two different ways to look at intention: one purely mechanical; the other effectual. In my case, I intended to pass from a mechanical perspective and intended to play 4♠ from an effectual perspective. In your case, I think the player intended to pass from a mechanical perspective and intended to defend a doubled 7-level contract from an effectual perspective.
I do not have any Law reference, but it feels to me like the Laws should allow a change in the case of an unintended mechanical error and not in the case of an unintended effectual error.
#17
Posted 2010-December-04, 13:35
TimG, on 2010-December-04, 10:08, said:
I once opened 1♠ and partner raised to 3♠ (limit). I thought for a bit about whether to make a slam try, eventually decided not to, and passed. A few moments later, I realized that I'd be playing in a partscore as a result. When I passed, I intended to pass from a mechanical perspective, it was not a case of inadvertently saying "pass" instead of "four spades". I thought, temporarily, that "pass" was equivalent to playing 4♠. I then realized my mistake. Even though I hadn't intended to play a partscore, I had intended to pass.
It seems to me that there are two different ways to look at intention: one purely mechanical; the other effectual. In my case, I intended to pass from a mechanical perspective and intended to play 4♠ from an effectual perspective. In your case, I think the player intended to pass from a mechanical perspective and intended to defend a doubled 7-level contract from an effectual perspective.
I do not have any Law reference, but it feels to me like the Laws should allow a change in the case of an unintended mechanical error and not in the case of an unintended effectual error.
The infamous Law 25B2b2 allowed this until 2007.
I have heard (no guarantee that this is correct!) that it was incorporated in the laws after a very senior (and famous) player passed out an unexpected but very disapointing response to a Blacwood 4NT bid instead of just bidding 5 in the agreed trump suit.
The general opinion of WBFLC after a few years of experience with this law was that the cure is far worse than the disease. My own greatest fun as director always was to see the startled expressions on players' faces when I explained to them their option under Law 25B2b2.
#18
Posted 2010-December-09, 12:28
As to the original question it might be better if everyone passed correctly but the fact is they do not. In last seat I tap a pass card rather than producing a new one. The Danes have a regulation which effectively says they do not approve of the practice but any such method of passing is a pass.
When a player does something instead of passing it is usually clear what he intended, so similar to a claim the TD is rarely involved. When the TD is involved any action apart from the official method is illegal [outside Denmark anyway] so the player is likely to find rulings going against him unless he can demonstrate his intentions to the TD clearly. Even so there may be UI to partner or the effects of misleading actions to opponents.
However, I am somewhat dubious about the presumption that a player has passed form an extraneous comment not usually interpreted as a pass, and I have never known anyone say "I'm out" and intend it as a pass.
So, the TD has to make a judgement, based on how reasonable it is to interpret whatever happened as a pass and whether it was meant as a pass.
Incidentally, Ed, in England when using spoken bidding, tapping the table is the correct legal way to alert.
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#19
Posted 2010-December-09, 19:21
bluejak, on 2010-December-09, 12:28, said:
I knew that. I'd forgotten it, but I knew it.
OTOH, tapping the table is neither correct nor legal here for any meaning, even though it happens all the time and anybody who called the director because of it would be looked at as a PITA rather than a bridge player.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#20
Posted 2010-December-10, 01:54
blackshoe, on 2010-December-09, 19:21, said:
You write as if the two terms were mutually exclusive: in my experiece there is overlap and even correlation; and for some directors the former seems to be a qualification.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."