[icearif]

Imps, none vulnerable

♠A7
♥AK1085
♦Q87
♣A84

P - P - 1♦* - 1♥ *Unbal 4441 or 5+♦
P - 2♥ - X - XX
2♠ - 3♣ - P - ?

What do you bid and how do you rate the options?

[pooltuna]

 icearif, on 2010-December-13, 10:21, said:

Imps, none vulnerable

♠A7
♥AK1085
♦Q87
♣A84

P - P - 1♦* - 1♥ *Unbal 4441 or 5+♦
P - 2♥ - X - XX
2♠ - 3♣ - P - ?

What do you bid and how do you rate the options?

I will stick with what I consider an obvious 4♥ call

[mtvesuvius]

4♥, it may be a bit aggressive, but the Axx♣ and ♦Q are probably going to be very useful cards, and I think that if partner can make a try, we have to go for it.

[Phil]

 icearif, on 2010-December-13, 10:21, said:

Imps, none vulnerable

♠A7
♥AK1085
♦Q87
♣A84

P - P - 1♦* - 1♥ *Unbal 4441 or 5+♦
P - 2♥ - X - XX
2♠ - 3♣ - P - ?

What do you bid and how do you rate the options?

3N. 4♥ looks awkward opposite something like xx xxx xx KQxxxx. Frankly, its possible any game doesn't have a play opposite some minimums, so 3♦ could be in order, but I cannot bring myself to it.

[mikeh]

I don't read partner as making a try for game, despite our redouble. To me, he is suggesting that maybe 3♣ is a place to play: Phil's construction makes sense to me.

Furthermore, 3N retains flexibility.....partner should be able to infer that I have club help...or am I using knowledge of my hand to colour my thinking?

3N doesn't rule out 4♥ but 4♥ does rule out 3N. Since 9 tricks may be the limit in either denomination, that's what I bid.

However, I may be wrong.....imo, distributional game try hands ignore the double of 2♥ and make their game try. Redouble hands announce solid extras, deny any real shape, and are more aimed at allowing partner to continue to compete than at looking for game altho game isn't ruled out. What say you?

[kayin801]

4♥ could also be wrong if they have a diamond ruff (and opener's partner didn't even bother with a diamond raise in competition, so I think this is likely), while 3NT could be wrong if we need to finesse in clubs AND enter dummy since opener is likely to have club length and we could lose our clubs, if not lose 4 spade tricks. In fact, everything looks pretty badly placed here so I could be convinced pass is right too. I can see us losing 2 diamonds, a diamond ruff, and a heart in 4♥ or losing a club and 4 spades in 3NT. But the former is only going to happen if partner has that sample hand phil made, while partner could still have a bit more than that, so pass still seems too negative to me.

If 3♠ is asking for a stopper, I would gamble that if partner can't bid 3NT that he has something in diamonds or hearts so we can make 4♥.

[kenberg]

I would have bid 4H but I am convinced by the 3NT argument.
Yep, 3NT.

[ggwhiz]

Indeed, what is partners minimum to stick in that free 3♣ bid?

I'm bidding 4♥ but would not be shocked to miss slam. I should probably cue 3♠ on the way though.

[mtvesuvius]

 ggwhiz, on 2010-December-13, 17:26, said:

I'm bidding 4♥ but would not be shocked to miss slam.

Wait... what?!

[lexlogan]

3♥. Love the controls but this hand has too many losers; responder is short in diamonds, I expect AK and a ruff.

[ggwhiz]

 mtvesuvius, on 2010-December-13, 17:34, said:

Wait... what?!

I think the free 3♣ bid shows at LEAST a help suit game try, not some cheesy attempt to play in clubs after supporting hearts. By my partnership agreement, Phil's constructed hand is a 3 heart bid, perhaps not best but a new suit is forward going.

If that view of the bid is outgunned, no big deal. That's what the forums are for.

[Phil]

 ggwhiz, on 2010-December-14, 10:34, said:

I think the free 3♣ bid shows at LEAST a help suit game try, not some cheesy attempt to play in clubs after supporting hearts. By my partnership agreement, Phil's constructed hand is a 3 heart bid, perhaps not best but a new suit is forward going.

If that view of the bid is outgunned, no big deal. That's what the forums are for.

Playing with a random expert partner, I would expect 3♣ to be a source of tricks, not a HSGT.

[ggwhiz]

So, I redouble showing extras and pard freely introduces a new suit even though we have an established fit and it's TO PLAY? Glass half full or half empty, this attitude is a serious disconnect.

Does pard make all final decisions? C'mon, I show my hand with the redouble, fold my cards and put them in my pocket?

Phil: (or other passers) a small stakes match could be fun but my pard is on the laptop on the ground floor. We play straight up but bragging rights are tough to resist and put the pressure on.

[mikeh]

 ggwhiz, on 2010-December-14, 22:50, said:

So, I redouble showing extras and pard freely introduces a new suit even though we have an established fit and it's TO PLAY? Glass half full or half empty, this attitude is a serious disconnect.

Does pard make all final decisions? C'mon, I show my hand with the redouble, fold my cards and put them in my pocket?

Phil: (or other passers) a small stakes match could be fun but my pard is on the laptop on the ground floor. We play straight up but bragging rights are tough to resist and put the pressure on.

Could you point me to any post in which Phil or anyone else suggested pass?

[Free]

Now I'm convinced 3NT might be better than 4♥. Love the forums!

[fromageGB]

Just noticed this thread, sorry.
The redouble shows a good hand I assume, so partner worried that 2♠ may make or be a good sacrifice bids 3♣ to show values there. Mmmm.

Opener's lack of a 3♦ bid, which he can easily make on long diaomonds, suggests he could be the 4144 variety, or 3154, so no good breaks and 4 quick losers playing in hearts. Maybe a spade lead from KQ, we lose a heart (natural or a club or diamond ruff) and therefore lose 2 diamonds, a heart and a spade. I'm happy to just bid 3♥. I've done my bit, and if partner wants to go on then that's up to him.

I am not all convinced by the 3NT argument. Give LHO the ♥Q and we go down a bundle, as we have only 2 tricks in hearts, 1 in spades, 1 in diamonds, 3 in clubs before they get in.

3♥

[barryallen]

 fromageGB, on 2010-December-18, 08:43, said:

Just noticed this thread, sorry.
The redouble shows a good hand I assume, so partner worried that 2♠ may make or be a good sacrifice bids 3♣ to show values there. Mmmm.

Opener's lack of a 3♦ bid, which he can easily make on long diaomonds, suggests he could be the 4144 variety, or 3154, so no good breaks and 4 quick losers playing in hearts. Maybe a spade lead from KQ, we lose a heart (natural or a club or diamond ruff) and therefore lose 2 diamonds, a heart and a spade. I'm happy to just bid 3♥. I've done my bit, and if partner wants to go on then that's up to him.

I am not all convinced by the 3NT argument. Give LHO the ♥Q and we go down a bundle, as we have only 2 tricks in hearts, 1 in spades, 1 in diamonds, 3 in clubs before they get in.

3♥

That just makes far more sense, if you have any form of 4441, even 3154, it looks like you are in trouble. So for me the possibilities lie around the definition of that initial X!