[gnasher]

MikeH said:

Does anyone play any version of good/bad or bad/good 2N here

Phil, on 2011-January-06, 15:26, said:

Yep - which is why 4♣ is forcing.

So if you weren't playing Good-Bad 2NT, 4♣ would be non-forcing? I agree.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2011-January-06, 11:07, said:

Does anyone play any version of good/bad or bad/good 2N here?

With good-bad 2 NT, 4♣ is forcing.

mikeh, on 2011-January-06, 11:07, said:

It may be obvious to Andy but the fact that it garnered so little support here suggests that it is far from obvious to the majority of players. Which makes it a dangerous choice.

Same goes for 4♣

As far as i searched, 4 ♣ is far from being obvious forcing for a lot of players (without agreement). In fact for majority it is not. Don't get me wrong, the more i think about it, the more i am convincing myself that better to play it forcing. But w/o agreement, it is not obvious for a lot of people therefore as dangerous as Andy's bid, if not more. Since noone will pass his bid but some will pass 4♣. Although at the end, if u both have an accident, u will probably leave the accident scene with less injuries And sometimes even if pd passes, u can still be given another chance by opponents.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on 2011-January-06, 11:07, said:

If so, that would assist, since we would now have 3 ways to show (or imply) clubs below game, in addition to what I respectfully say is the not-so-obvious splinter of 3♠. It may be obvious to Andy but the fact that it garnered so little support here suggests that it is far from obvious to the majority of players. Which makes it a dangerous choice. What would we do with x AKQ10xxx Ax Kxx, assuming we opened 1♥? I'm not saying I'd bid 3♠, but whether I ended up doing so or not, I suspect 3♠ would garner at least some support in a bidding contest.

Sometimes it requires a little thought to work out that something is obvious.

3♠ certainly shows shortage, unless you have an explicit agreement that a jump in an opponent's suit means something else.

Usually a splinter shows support for your partner's suit, rather than agreeing your own suit. Most people play self-agreeing splinters only when partner hasn't shown a suit, typically when he has bid notrumps. There is good reason for that - if all partner has done is to show his own suit, I dont have any particular reason to expect support, so it's rare that I can say for certain "My suit is trumps". However, I will often have four-card support for partner's suit, so I will often be able to say "Your suit is trumps."

In this sequence responder has shown two suits. That certainly makes it less likely that I could set my own suit as trumps, and it doesn't make it any less likely that I have support for one of his suits. If I had primary diamonds, I would double 2♦ to expose the psyche. Therefore 3♠ agrees clubs.

[cherdano]

What I would really like to bid is 4S=exclusion keycard. Obviously I wouldn't risk this unless we had discussed that double jumps to the 4-level can be exclusion for a minor suit.

[MrAce]

@ Gnasher; I agree with ya on the splinter and that it needs to be on responder's suit w/o agreement otherwise. What would u suggest use of 2♠, 3♦, 3♠ (u already said), 4♦/♠ cues here ?

After this topic i started to think on the issue, since me and my pd dont have detailed agreement on this. How about being able to cue or splinter by also telling pd if we are doing this with fit or self sufficient trump of ourself ? For example somethign like "unusual over unusual" treatment. It wont be able to show stiff but shape and strong hands (perhaps stiff can be shown later ?) In this example 3♠ showing strong ♥ suit and a shortness somewhere in opponents suit, 3♦ or 4♦ showing ♣ fit and a hand with shape....not able to show stiff+ fit at same time but has some merits when opener has self sufficient or close suit and big hand. What do u think ?

[tolvyrj]

The big question here IMO is that who has all the spades. Can prd bid minor showing dbl with 4 spade cards ? If he can his spades r more like 4 very small ones. Ok why didnt RHO bid spades but instead diamonds? Is he preparing to something, like bidding spades later on in very high level and giving a lead direct bid first in case we compete with our minors to the level they r going to dbl us?
Whatever the case is one thing is clear; spades will be bid in next round to at least 3 level, but more likely into the 4 level. Back to my hand; do i want to defend oppos spade contract? Nope, so i must start to make some preparations; i will bid spades my self and level depends on what it will mean 2S could be fine, but it probaply asks for a spade stopper, and that i know my prd has not, or its Q something. 3S must be control showing bid so that will be my choice and on 4S i will bid 5C.
What do i do when prd doubles 5S im not sure i can count 1 or less defence tricks in my hand, i probaply bid 6C.
Then why all this fuss, why dont i bid 6C straight away? Because i like more scientific approach to bidding; God only knows why

[rduran1216]

tolvyrj, on 2011-January-11, 00:58, said:

The big question here IMO is that who has all the spades. Can prd bid minor showing dbl with 4 spade cards ? If he can his spades r more like 4 very small ones. Ok why didnt RHO bid spades but instead diamonds? Is he preparing to something, like bidding spades later on in very high level and giving a lead direct bid first in case we compete with our minors to the level they r going to dbl us?
Whatever the case is one thing is clear; spades will be bid in next round to at least 3 level, but more likely into the 4 level. Back to my hand; do i want to defend oppos spade contract? Nope, so i must start to make some preparations; i will bid spades my self and level depends on what it will mean 2S could be fine, but it probaply asks for a spade stopper, and that i know my prd has not, or its Q something. 3S must be control showing bid so that will be my choice and on 4S i will bid 5C.
What do i do when prd doubles 5S im not sure i can count 1 or less defence tricks in my hand, i probaply bid 6C.
Then why all this fuss, why dont i bid 6C straight away? Because i like more scientific approach to bidding; God only knows why

Partner's hand was KQJxxx A KQ10x Jx

This was someone with 100 kibitzers following that made the negative dbl, then pulled my 5C rebid to 6H

[matmat]

LOL. I just looked up the hand (and the partner). I don't really see why you would bother posting anything that that particular individual does or says.

Also, calling it a "following" is, for the most part, a misrepresentation. I would guess most people are kibbing for ***** and giggles.

[tolvyrj]

Did u remember to say sry to u prd, because u screw up this deal by pulling away his/hers penalty dbl?

[mtvesuvius]

4♣ seems like a clear start, it will probably be a later guess whether to bid slam or not, but hopefully I can judge right when the time comes.