[straube]

wclass___, on 2011-April-08, 13:00, said:

I should have added that i play precision only 1st/2nd seat Non-Vulnerable... i think i wouldn't play 2♣ as ''weak any'' if vulnerable, although if one play strong NT it might be playable.

I am a firm believer that you should immediately show length of ♥ or lack of it before RHO bids.

We play 14-16 NT. How do you play 1C (1S) 2C P 2S and 1C (1S) 2C P 2N?

[wclass___]

straube, on 2011-April-08, 13:20, said:

We play 14-16 NT. How do you play 1C (1S) 2C P 2S and 1C (1S) 2C P 2N?

2d/2h 4+
2S shows quite a lot of extra strength, catch all, F
2N is natural, extra strength, NF
3x good suit, extra strength, NF

[straube]

I tried to tabulate it for 100 hands. It required a lot of judgment because many hands could use one bid or another. For example Kxx xx Kxx Axxxx could be described with 1N or 2S. I used the guideline of 6+ or 6-8 but this meant that a large number of 5pt hands had to make the less elegant bid of 2C.

9.... P...... 4H-6+ or trap
15.. dbl... 6-8, not 4H
9.....1N.....gf with stop
31...2C.....0-5
15...2D.....5+ hearts and 6+
8.....2H.....GF no stop, fairly balanced
8.....2S......GF clubs
1.....2N.....6-8, 5/5 minors
3.....3C.....GF diamonds
1.....3S......GF 1444

Even at 0-4 I'm concerned that the 2C bid occurs too often. Pass ought to be very frequent.

[straube]

Similar to Free's structure...and with 100 tabulated hands

35.....P.....5-7 without 5 hearts OR trapping for spades
25....dbl...0-4 any
18....1N...8+ with full stopper, nondirectional, may have 4 hearts, may have a stiff
6......2C...8+ with five hearts
7......2D...8+ without full stopper, nondirectional, denies 4 hearts
6......2H...5-7, 5+ hearts
5......2S....8+ with four hearts, may or may not have longer minor, tends to deny a spade stopper
2......2N...8+ with six+ clubs, denies 4 hearts
2......3C...8+ with six+ diamonds, denies 4 hearts
0......3D...8+ 1-3-(54)
0......3H-8+ 1-4-4-4
0......3S-8+ 5/5 minors

After 1C (1S) 2C P 2D is a waiting bid that gives responder a chance to show a sixth heart, deny or show a stopper, or show a minor suit

After a semipositive, opener's 2S rebid creates a GF.

otherwise continuations are fairly natural

[Free]

I'm not sure why you insist on a structure where you can't bid ♠ natural, while in another thread you claim the following:

Quote

One spade is an attractive overcall to make after a strong club by LHO and I've seen people do that with 4 and even 3 spades.

I agree that 1♠ overcalls are very attractive with all sorts of hands. Apparently people are gentle against your strong 1♣ opening. Over here we get a huge amount of psychs or random 1♠ bids (this is typical for 1♠ overcalls, a 1♥ overcall for example is usually real). I prefer to use as few structures as possible to handle interference over strong ♣ openings. Since the 1♠ overcall can have many different meanings and is a psych much more frequent than any other call, I prefer to just ignore it rather than having 10 different schemes for every possible 1♠ overcall and still not being able to handle a psych.

Imo it's very important to be able to ignore a 1♠ overcall (like in a natural system (1m)-p-(1M)-2M is natural). The opportunities to trap opponents are very rare because they can easily find a better fit most of the time and stay low.

If I knew my opps can't bid ♠ after my overcall, I'd bid 1♠ even more and let them suffer when ♠ is their own suit.

[bluecalm]

All natural GF, dbl = 6-7pc. If it's good for Meckwell it's good for mere mortals :-)
I believe they dbl with 4 hearts and 8+pc and no stopper but I am not 100% sure (they do that vs 2 level overcalls).

[straube]

Well I didn't mean to insist on a structure that couldn't show spades though my last proposal didn't allow for that. akhare and awm also pointed out that being able to show spades makes a lot of sense. awm prefers the dbl to be takeout/bal oriented so as to allow for opener to pass when he has spades.

Here's his structure and I appreciate that he shared it with me.

P-negative or trapping or 5-7 or so with awkward shapes (awkward because they have some spade length)
dbl-takeout or balanced, could have a GF hand without a suit and without a spade stopper
1N-GF with a stopper, probably balanced
2C-diamonds, semipositive or better
2D-hearts, semipositive or better
2H-spades, semipositive of better (I'm thinking better or might as well trap)
2S-clubs, semipositive or better

I've never really understood transfers over a strong club. It seems like if a fit has been discovered then the suit deserves a raise. I also worry about the opportunity cost of having opener's step 1 rebid be nf and I worry about preempting opener's hearts or diamonds (or spades) with a 2S (showing clubs) response. It's also messy sorting out the GF from semipositive strengths; how does one rebid one's suit in a forcing way? OTOH, showing one's suit and some values is useful before spades are raised.

I'm thinking more along Meckwell lines. Is their 1N response GF with a stopper? I assume they do something like...

P-0-4 or 5-7 trapping
dbl-semipositive
1N-GF with a stopper?
2C-natural, GF
2D-natural, GF
2H-natural, GF
2S-natural, GF

[awm]

There are two main ideas behind the transfers.

First, opener is very frequently balanced and fairly minimum (for us 16+ to 18 or so); this is just because balanced hands are high frequency. This is the hand that accepts the transfer, allowing us to play a right-sided two-level contract every time we have a semi-positive opposite a balanced hand. After the accept of transfer we can generally play as if opener showed a balanced hand in that range (although semi-balanced hands do accept the transfer also) which often leads to good auctions. We have 2♠ available for either partner to show a non-descript game-force in these sequences too.

Second, the transfers allow us to show our suit immediately on both game-going and semi-positive hands. This is really important because sometimes opponents jump the auction. For example, we could see 1♣-1♠-X-3♠ where X just shows "general values" (either any 5-7, or any GF depending on the methods); this puts opener to a pretty big guess on many common hands since he has no idea of our degree of suit fit. While showing hearts is arguably "more important" than showing a minor, we could still easily have a huge minor-suit fit on the above sequence which argues strongly for playing our own game or slam rather than defending 3♠X. Or the opponents could have over-competed the hand already (people overcall 1♠ on four-card suits all the time, and raise it on 3-4 card suits to the three-level too). Showing a bit about shape rather than just points is a huge advantage in these sequences (and not just hearts).

We do play the 2♠ bid (transfer to clubs) as game forcing kind of for the reason you give. It takes up a lot of space and sorting out semi-positives would be too hard. In principle there are some club semi-positives that might have to pass or make an awkward double (although we can also show a six-plus card club suit with less than game values at the three-level if we want).

I will say that I don't understand natural and NF two-level bids showing 5-7 points (like the 2♥ in Straube's methods). When exactly can opener pass? It seems like a lot of the hands where you should pass opposite six hearts are awful to pass opposite five hearts, and to some degree the opposite is true as well.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I'm thinking more along Meckwell lines. Is their 1N response GF with a stopper? I assume they do something like...

P-0-4 or 5-7 trapping
dbl-semipositive
1N-GF with a stopper?
2C-natural, GF
2D-natural, GF
2H-natural, GF
2S-natural, GF

From what I understand opponent's suit is game forcing balanced hand without stopper in their methods.
1NT is natural GF with stopper.

I like this structure a lot. It's simple and allows you to establish forcing pass quickly which is very important in case they jump.

[straube]

2S as GF clubs makes a lot of sense. I imagine 2H as spades is GF, too (trap with the semipositive S)

So 2N up are transfer semipositives? Then

1C (1S) 2D P
2N P 2H is GF with 6?

Just trying to see how we get into GF auctions

[awm]

The auction you gave had an insufficient bid at the end...

After 2♦ (transfer) opener bids 2♥ with many minimums. The 2NT rebid by opener should be game-forcing, so of course any continuation is GF.

After 1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(Pass)-2♥, which seems to be the auction you are asking about: new suit bid is natural and GF, 2♠ is GF without clear direction, 4♥ is possible (the transfer accept promises 1+ heart and usually has 2-3 heart), 4m is a self-splinter. Bidding 3♥ or 2NT would not be forcing (invite); game forcing hands with these shapes normally bid 2♠ (or 3NT/4♥/self-splinter if suitable).

The jump-transfer sequences are usually less than semi-positive (maybe the very low end of SP is okay). They aren't typical 6-counts (which transfer then raise). The idea is that say the auction goes 1♣-(1♠) and you have something like ♠x ♥xx ♦QT98xxx ♣xxx. You do not really want to pass; you could make game opposite a diamond fit and it will otherwise be hard to convince partner you have this long of a suit and this little in values. It also pressures the opponents (who might even have game here) somewhat. So we play 3♣ as a transfer to diamonds here which opener virtually always accepts (he does not need any diamonds to accept unlike a 2♣ transfer where accepting is always 1+ and usually 2-3, and he can accept on hands with extras if they don't have a great fit or game-in-hand). Another possibility is a weak two-suiter like say ♠x ♥QT9xx ♦JT9xxxx ♣-. You could transfer to diamonds with this hand, but that usually shows more values and if you transfer to diamonds and then rebid hearts (maybe at some high level after a raise by opponents) then partner will think you actually have a good hand and could try for slam. Passing with this hand obviously creates all kinds of problems. Instead we bid 3♣ (diamonds) followed by bidding hearts, which shows a crazy two-suiter that probably can make game opposite the big club but doesn't really have any defense or much of any slam interest.

[straube]

Sorry, I'd assumed that 1C (1S) 2D P 2N was nf misfitting

After 1C (1S)

2D-3H is forcing or invitational?
2D-3C is forcing? Is there any way to show a minimum club hand?

Any way for opener to show spades?

[Wackojack]

A bewildering array of options, if you are new to playing a strong club system. A partner of mine who devised an ambiguous forcing pass system a very long time ago, felt the need to devise a legal strong club system fairly recently. I don't feel comfortable playing strong club systems but I made a deal with him saying that I would play it if the defence to interference was fully worked out. After several goes at it, this has got my partial approval.
I do not know if this is mainstream or not since I am not familiar with strong club systems.

1♣-(1♦♥♠ natural)-?

0-2 HCP
Pass unless 6 or more in major or 7 or more in minor.

3-4 HCP
Respond at the 1 level with a 5 card suit or minimally at the 2 level with a good 6 card suit if possible. Otherwise pass.

5-7 HCP
Respond at the 1 level or minimally at the 2 level with a 5 card suit
With a balanced hand and a stop in the opponents bid suit respond 1NT.
Otherwise pass. (Also pass with length in opponents’ suit.)

8+HCP (i) Double with at least 2 in the opponents’ overcalled suit and no long suit
(ii) With a shortage in opponent’s suit, cue bid with 1444, 1345, 0445
(iii) Jump or make a 3 level response in a new suit with a 6 carder
(iv) Pass with length in opponents suit (trap pass)
(v) With 5-5 in two other suits:
- jump to 2NT with the 2 higher ranking suits
- jump cue with the two lower ranking suits
- jump to 3NT with the two other 2 suits

If the opponent’s overcall is artificial implying a different suit, then a bid of the implied suit is a cue and a bid of the overcalled suit is natural. If the overcall shows a 2-suiter one of which is the overcalled suit and the other a known suit then a bid of either of these suits is a cue. If length is held in either of these suits then pass.

Countering 2 level overcalls is similar in approach

[Echognome]

Without going into boring details, I always liked:

Pass - Any semi-positive (then double by opener is a relay for shape shown 2-up)
Dbl - Double Negative
1NT+ - Any GF showing shape at 2-up

This allows us to continue the relay (including showing natural spades) and somewhat protect from psychs. It also quickly defines the forcing pass rules.

One could arguably flip flop pass to be any GF and 1NT+ to be semi-pos and shape showing.

If relays aren't your thing I think the principles extend as follows.

Pass - Any semi-positive
Dbl - Double negative
1NT+ - Any GF and bidding naturally (including 2S)

Again, can flip the meanings of Pass and 1NT+.

[Free]

Echognome, on 2011-April-22, 17:27, said:

Without going into boring details, I always liked:

Pass - Any semi-positive (then double by opener is a relay for shape shown 2-up)
Dbl - Double Negative
1NT+ - Any GF showing shape at 2-up

This allows us to continue the relay (including showing natural spades) and somewhat protect from psychs. It also quickly defines the forcing pass rules.

One could arguably flip flop pass to be any GF and 1NT+ to be semi-pos and shape showing.

If relays aren't your thing I think the principles extend as follows.

Pass - Any semi-positive
Dbl - Double negative
1NT+ - Any GF and bidding naturally (including 2S)

Again, can flip the meanings of Pass and 1NT+.

This works best against random 1♠ overcalls. In my region they're very common, so that's what I played in the past without too much trouble. Indeed, the semipositives are +2 steps (like when you play 1♣-1♦ negative, so no big deal), but the GF are also +2 steps which is sometimes a problem with balanced hands. Since you don't expect too much preemption after a random 1♠, it works just fine to play relays. They sometimes start doubling which helps us lowering our relays.

[straube]

I'm thinking that we still have room to relay. We are +2 which isn't too bad.
How about?

P-semipositive
.....dbl-relays with 20+
..........P-semipositive with spade stack
.........1N-4+ spades that doesn't want to sit.
.........2C-4+ hearts, not 4 spades
.........2D-balanced, no 5-cd suit
.........etc.
.....1N-natural, nf
.....2L-natural, nf
dbl-double negative
1N-4+ spades, GF
2C-4+ hearts, not 4 spades
2D-balanced, no 5-cd suit
etc.

[straube]

Yep, I think it works.

P-semipositives
dbl-negative
1N-GF, 4+ spades, unbalanced or 5332
2C-GF, 4+ heart, unbalanced or 5332
2D-GF, 4432 or 4333
2H-GF, 5/4 minors
2S-GF, clubs
2N-GF, 3-suited short major
3C+ diamonds

and the tally

P-40
dbl-18
1N-7
2C-4
2D-14
2H-3
2S-1
3C-1

[shevek]

Assuming 1♠ shows 4+ spades ...
Rubensohl has worked well for us

X = unlimited tko, not 1-suited
1NT = nnf, stopper
2♣ = 5+ ♦s
2♦= 5+♥s
2♥ = bal GF, no stopper
2♠ = 5+ ♣s
2NT = GF with stopper
3♣+ = as you wish. Maybe 2-suiters, or slammish 1-suiters.

In this style, X then a new suit is limited, 2-suited.
For instance,
♠xxx ♥Axxx ♦x ♣QJxxx

is awkward.
We would double 1♠ then bid a reluctant 3♣ over the unwelcome 2♦.
No fun but at least it's weakish since a stronger hand would transfer to clubs then bid 3♥s.
In response to double, opener's 1NT does not guarantee a stopper. 2m usually 5-carders.

We like 1NT by responder as natural, non-forcing.
These hands are common enough:
♠QTx ♥xxx ♦Ax ♣xxxxx
We would often prefer 1NT to X with the 3-4-2-4 say

Transfer then a new suit is GF, etc.

[straube]

If you pass with the bad hands and double with the semipositive hands, you are giving a lot more room to the bad hands. This is topsy turvy.

At higher level overcalls one needs to double with the takeout shapes and bid or pass with their suit. This allows opener a chance to "relay" with a double or make a descriptive bid.

I've notes from a good partnership that plays that 1C (2D) dbl can be any semipositive or GF takeout or GF balanced hand without a stopper. Good luck sorting all that out.