BBO Discussion Forums: The Misadventures of Rex and Jay #5777 - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

The Misadventures of Rex and Jay #5777 Problem in Competition

#1 User is offline   microcap 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2004-March-08

Posted 2011-July-03, 12:15

It's been a while for you fans of TMORAJ-- hope you haven't suffered withdrawal symptoms! B-)

Rex and I had a typically loud disagreement over the following hand. As usual, it is a multi-part question!


Playing one of those pesky 6 board team matches where any one screwup is deadly:

Partner opens 1, which promises 4 cards AND denies a balanced minimum. So he has either 17+ balanced, 6+ diamonds any strength, or 5 diamonds in an unbalanced hand any strength. RHO overcalls 1 and you are up.

You hold this hard show collection.


1 promises 5 cards. Is this your call or something else?

1 isn't the worst call you'll ever make, so let's assume that's what you bid. Now, LHO raises to 2, pass, pass
back to you.

Now what do you do? a)go quietly b) dbl c) bid 3, or d) whatever? The critical question: if you bid 3, what are you promising partner?

Regards and thanks to all for commenting.
1

#2 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,826
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2011-July-03, 12:21

2nt/good/bad

2nt forces 3c and then I pass.

direct 3c shows much more.


I assumed we play support x so pard denies 3s.
0

#3 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,250
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2011-July-03, 12:21

Hi,

If I play 2C as forcing, I prefer 2C over 1S, but 1S is ok.
The answer to your 2nd question - I am bidding 3C.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#4 User is offline   BunnyGo 

  • Lamentable Bunny
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,505
  • Joined: 2008-March-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, ME

Posted 2011-July-03, 12:42

I agree with the two previous posters. If you are playing good/bad 2NT then 2NT is a good bid. Otherwise I bid 3C.
Bridge Personality: 44 44 43 34

Never tell the same lie twice. - Elim Garek on the real moral of "The boy who cried wolf"
0

#5 User is offline   mfa1010 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 796
  • Joined: 2010-October-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Copenhagen, Denmark

Posted 2011-July-03, 13:06

I would balance 3. I don't play good-bad (and don't want to), but I do have a firm agreement with partner that all responder's balances in new suits are nonforcing. Even reverses or at the three-level.
Michael Askgaard
3

#6 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2011-July-03, 14:14

like the bunny man
1

#7 User is offline   Onedown 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 100
  • Joined: 2004-March-18

Posted 2011-July-03, 14:34

Did anyone consider a negative double? We have the shape, and it may find a spade fit or club fit. If it does go 2, then pass by partner, I will bid a quiet 2.
If I had a better hand partner should know I would bid an immediate spade with 5+ spades. Partner also knows I have with my negative double and then free 2.
1

#8 User is offline   microcap 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2004-March-08

Posted 2011-July-03, 14:47

 Onedown, on 2011-July-03, 14:34, said:

Did anyone consider a negative double? We have the shape, and it may find a spade fit or club fit. If it does go 2, then pass by partner, I will bid a quiet 2.
If I had a better hand partner should know I would bid an immediate spade with 5+ spades. Partner also knows I have with my negative double and then free 2.


Yes, double was considered. As noted, there are alternatives to 1 that are reasonable for sure, including double. But as mentioned, 1 is certainly not crazy and was the call at the table. The trouble comes later LOL
0

#9 User is offline   MrAce 

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,971
  • Joined: 2009-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 2011-July-03, 22:12

What Mfa said sounds good to me.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





0

#10 User is offline   microcap 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2004-March-08

Posted 2011-July-04, 04:07

Part 2 and the denouement:

So at the table, the bid was in fact 3. LHO passes, now opener bids 3, showing at least 6 now. RHO comes back with 3, your hand passes gratefully.

But when the bid comes back to opener, he bids 3. RHO passes, and now responder decided opener has found a 3rd spade or has some compelling reason to keep going, so 4 was bid. Luckily undoubled, it was still an awful mess as opener held:


Down 2 and could have been worse as trumps were 4-2 and defense dropped a trick.

As some of you have pointed out, the confusion was caused by the nature of the 3 bid. Opener felt it was game forcing and as such he couldn't drop the bidding at 3. Responder felt it was just F1 and being competitive and that opener should have respected his pass over 3.

Comments?
1

#11 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2011-July-04, 04:24

I play 3c as gf. I agree with Mike's comments regarding good/bad.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#12 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2011-July-04, 06:35

Difficult decisions :( apart from passing 3 :)
0

#13 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2011-July-04, 06:38

Agree that 3C should be NF.

I would start with 2C. Not only do I like bidding my longest suit first, I'd also be much better placed if the opponents bid 2H, 3H or 4H. Actually, maybe I'm better placed because I bid my longest suit first...
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#14 User is offline   microcap 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2004-March-08

Posted 2011-July-04, 06:51

thank you all for the excellent responses. As Rex thought 3 was game forcing, he felt he had to bid over 3. I said he should respect my pass over 3 as we have a clear misfit and he has a really bad hand as this auction has proceeded. Even if you add a king to my hand, no game has much chance. My 4 bid was wrong, but again, I couldn't figure out why Rex had bid over 3 and thought he must have a fitting club honor that might allow me to sneak the vulnerable game through.

Rex will want to play good/bad 2NT as he loves any convention. I will veto it as I hate too many conventions and will never remember it. We will argue about it, and Rex will sulk. It's what we do best! :D
1

#15 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2011-July-04, 07:01

He thinks you have a GF hand with spades and clubs, and he has neither. Why didn't he double 3H?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#16 User is offline   WrecksVee 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 95
  • Joined: 2003-September-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland USA

Posted 2011-July-07, 10:28

 han, on 2011-July-04, 07:01, said:

He thinks you have a GF hand with spades and clubs, and he has neither. Why didn't he double 3H?


The heart of this thread was to determine whether 3 was forcing. Everyone who has mentioned that good bad 2NT is needed IMO acknowledges that without further agreement that 3is forcing. Since partner has forced twice it is hard to take pass as NF.

More importantly I did not double 3because the 3 denied interest in defending. We are playing support doubles and I had passed possibly concealing penalty double of 2. Partner then denied wanting to defend and forced with 3. I showed my length as it was the cheapest descriptive bid and waited for him to tell me why he forced. While he may have both black suits he could also have a one suited GF.

The crux is now that having heard two forcing calls I am supposed to assume the pass of 3 is now a sign of weakness. What I heard was a request to double if I had the possible penalty double. Surely I should not have less to double. I figured he might have 6 that were weak so I tried 3 to show my good two card support.

Jay will never agree to play good bad 2NT. So we need to handle this without such an agreement. I think on style/agreement is to fall back on "traditional' natural bidding, whatever that may be. So IMO Jay over bid his hand with 3 and then expected me in this case to ignore what I was shown. I hold that you can not blow hot and cold and need to consider what minimum you have promised. So if you do overbid you can not expect partner to be able to figure it out.

For our partnership I think the best suggestion I saw above was to make a negative double with Jay's hand. That gives a good chance of being able to show the weak distributional hand that was held without forcing.
"A stopper is neither weak nor strong but thinking makes it so." H. Kelsey
0

#17 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2011-July-07, 11:26

 WrecksVee, on 2011-July-07, 10:28, said:

Everyone who has mentioned that good bad 2NT is needed IMO acknowledges that without further agreement that 3is forcing.

Saying that Good-Bad 2NT is needed implies only that you need two ways to bid 3. It doesn't tell us which meaning takes priority if you have only one way to bid 3.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#18 User is offline   microcap 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2004-March-08

Posted 2011-July-07, 12:56

 WrecksVee, on 2011-July-07, 10:28, said:

The heart of this thread was to determine whether 3 was forcing. Everyone who has mentioned that good bad 2NT is needed IMO acknowledges that without further agreement that 3is forcing. Since partner has forced twice it is hard to take pass as NF.

More importantly I did not double 3because the 3 denied interest in defending. We are playing support doubles and I had passed possibly concealing penalty double of 2. Partner then denied wanting to defend and forced with 3. I showed my length as it was the cheapest descriptive bid and waited for him to tell me why he forced. While he may have both black suits he could also have a one suited GF.

The crux is now that having heard two forcing calls I am supposed to assume the pass of 3 is now a sign of weakness. What I heard was a request to double if I had the possible penalty double. Surely I should not have less to double. I figured he might have 6 that were weak so I tried 3 to show my good two card support.

Jay will never agree to play good bad 2NT. So we need to handle this without such an agreement. I think on style/agreement is to fall back on "traditional' natural bidding, whatever that may be. So IMO Jay over bid his hand with 3 and then expected me in this case to ignore what I was shown. I hold that you can not blow hot and cold and need to consider what minimum you have promised. So if you do overbid you can not expect partner to be able to figure it out.

For our partnership I think the best suggestion I saw above was to make a negative double with Jay's hand. That gives a good chance of being able to show the weak distributional hand that was held without forcing.


Actually, I think Rex has misstated his own position during the original argument. The issue isn't whether 3 is forcing, the issue is whether it's GAME forcing or just for one round. Rex felt at the table that is was a game force. I didn't, and still don't. So I had no complaint with his 3 bid, but I clearly think he should pass at IMP's over 3.
0

#19 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2011-July-07, 13:52

 mike777, on 2011-July-03, 12:21, said:

2nt/good/bad

2nt forces 3c and then I pass.

direct 3c shows much more.

I assumed we play support x so pard denies 3s.

Playing good/bad, isn't it the point that you can bid 3 on an intermediate hand while you go through 2NT with weak or GF hands?
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#20 User is offline   olien 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 238
  • Joined: 2008-March-06

Posted 2011-July-07, 19:00

I don't really see what the problem with choosing to GF on this hand is. I imagine that most people would open this hand. We are 6-5 with 5 losers and partner opened. I would've bid 2 the first time and bid a requisite number of later on. I think saying that one should bid Good/Bad 2NT and then pass 3 is resulting. Imagine partner with something like: x xxx Axxxx AKxx. Now 6 is excellent and that's opposite a very minimum hand.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users