[BunnyGo]

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Blame, No Blame, Lotsa Blame?

Scoring was IMPs.

[Flameous]

Depends on what west has shown.

I would bid 3H over 2C to show at most one loser suit. (opposite void) Some play that this shows solid suit so then it's not applicable.
For this sequence I would expect west to hold a bit worse suit and some side honor more. Without HQ/J/T this would be 4H bid for me.

But there are indeed many tendencies here and without knowing the agreements it's hard to put blame on anyone. We can assume that west shows about 5 loser hand, so east can see that he covers 4 of them so there should be a slam. But if the trumps aren't solid enough to play opposite void...

[rduran1216]

2H assumedly showed a better hand than 4H. With this being true I think E has to bid 6H, knowing he's got at least 4 tricks, and with W's 7 solid, or 1 loser, this should be a laydown. At worst, the diamond holding is AJxx or something, but then the spade pitches are there and u have to find the K of clubs.

[Bbradley62]

rduran1216, on 2011-September-06, 13:09, said:

2H assumedly showed a better hand than 4H. With this being true I think E has to bid 6H, knowing he's got at least 4 tricks, and with W's 7 solid, or 1 loser, this should be a laydown. At worst, the diamond holding is AJxx or something, but then the spade pitches are there and u have to find the K of clubs.

How does the auction go if West holds 832, AJT742, AK4, 4?

[ArtK78]

Bbradley62, on 2011-September-06, 13:40, said:

How does the auction go if West holds 82, AJT742, AK4, 42?

Presumably this hand bids 2NT over 2♠.

I was going to say that I never know how to bid 12 card hands, but when I started to respond to the post, the thirteenth card (the deuce of clubs) appeared. I note that there are now 3 spades and one club in Bradley's original post. When I first saw the hand, it was 2-6-3-1.

[Bbradley62]

Sorry, I saw the 12-card hand and tried to fix it before anyone else posted. Is it standard to rebid 2N instead of rebidding a reasonable (not very bad, not solid) 6-card major?

[Fluffy]

No, bidding 2♥ is normal with a bad 6 card suit.

The question should be if 1♥-2♥-4♥ shows a better suit than 1♥-2♥-3♥-4♥

[gszes]

they key is 3h over 2c showing the independent suit (max 1 loser)
(imo showing a suit with zero losers has almost no practical advantage)
and asking partner to take over or cue bid. This is easily followed
by 3s 4d 4n 5s 6h knowing slam should be at worst on a finesse.

the bidding makes it plain impossible for either player to explore for
slam because no dia control is ever shown.

[JLOGIC]

The problem with 1H 2H 4H is not that the suit waas too poor for it, it was that the hand was far too good. The AKx of diamonds combined with 7 solid missing the ace is very strong.

Personally I think you should just start with 1H 2C 3H, you are always playing hearts and it would be nice to start a cuebidding aution and have partner not worry about trumps. If you don't set trumps then, you might always be struggling to do so later when the issue on this hand is not strain, it's level.

[whereagles]

BunnyGo, on 2011-September-06, 12:05, said:

Blame, No Blame, Lotsa Blame?

Depends. Does 4♥ show the T of hearts?

[the_dude]

whereagles, on 2011-September-06, 18:42, said:

Depends. Does 4♥ show the T of hearts?

imho the best use of 3♥ is: Independent suit with a known quantity of losers after blackwood. ie. KQJ10xxx qualifies but AKQ10xx does not.

[whereagles]

hmmm... with due respect, any definition that prevents me to jump-suit on AKQxxx is wierd to me

I have an alternative definition, which is simply "likely max of 0-1 losers opposite a singleton".

[the_dude]

whereagles, on 2011-September-14, 04:13, said:

hmmm... with due respect, any definition that prevents me to jump-suit on AKQxxx is wierd to me

I have an alternative definition, which is simply "likely max of 0-1 losers opposite a singleton".

Yes .. it seems counter intuitive .. but in a 2/1 context, I think many to use the jump as a message: partner this suit is trump, end of discussion .. now let's start cue bidding to see if there is a slam in the mix. Problem is .. you can't reasonably sniff for a slam without knowing if you have a trump loser based on length (as opposed to a missing key card).

[ArtK78]

I don't think that jumping on KQJTxxx rather than AKQxxx is counter-intuitive.

One of the main premises of 2/1 game forcing is that one does not need to waste space after the 2/1 response in order to establish a game force. It follows that any bid that deliberately uses up a great deal of space (1♥-2♣-3♥) carries with it a very specific meaning. In this case, the meaning is a zero or one loser suit which plays opposite a void. So, responder should then commence cuebidding, and 6♥ should be reached without too much trouble.

[han]

I would also bid 1H - 2C - 3H. If you don't bid like that it becomes very hard for partner to cooperate with a heart slam.

[jmcw]

ArtK78, on 2011-September-14, 08:08, said:

I don't think that jumping on KQJTxxx rather than AKQxxx is counter-intuitive.

One of the main premises of 2/1 game forcing is that one does not need to waste space after the 2/1 response in order to establish a game force. It follows that any bid that deliberately uses up a great deal of space (1♥-2♣-3♥) carries with it a very specific meaning. In this case, the meaning is a zero or one loser suit which plays opposite a void. So, responder should then commence cuebidding, and 6♥ should be reached without too much trouble.

Agree with this. Setting trumps with the jump is key, the 0/1 loser rule makes sense. If you play it as a 0 loser suit then you may be dead before it comes up in the context of a 2/1 auction.

[whereagles]

the_dude, on 2011-September-14, 07:36, said:

Yes .. it seems counter intuitive .. but in a 2/1 context, I think many to use the jump as a message: partner this suit is trump, end of discussion .. (...)

Understand, but I must say I always find the "this is trumps" argument a bit dodgy. Remember that for every good suit you have, pard may have a better one

[whereagles]

ArtK78, on 2011-September-14, 08:08, said:

One of the main premises of 2/1 game forcing is that one does not need to waste space after the 2/1 response in order to establish a game force.

Unfortunately that premise is, under standart bidding assumptions and in my opinion, somewhat unsound. If you go all-out shape you'd have a hard time discovering whether extras for slam are present. Jumping around on "lesser" suits do (again in my opinion) a better job of describing the shape and strength picture.

[FrancesHinden]

This is an easy 3H rebid on opener's hand to me. I think it should show a good enough suit to commit to being trumps plus extra values. The 7th heart makes it strong enough (same hand but only 6 hearts is a 2H rebid). After that it's easy.

[xxhong]

I would bid like:
1H 2C(gf)
2H(extra, 6+H) 2S(natural)
3H(7+H) 4N(natural invitation, void in H)
6H

BunnyGo, on 2011-September-06, 12:05, said:

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Blame, No Blame, Lotsa Blame?

Scoring was IMPs.