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Negative x need help

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-October-09, 15:02

Hi,

I wonder if you can put my mind at rest here please, belive it or not I am reading a lot about negative x, but one thing I can see stated anywhere (could be the wood for the trees syndrome) .

Are negative x's only used once in a hand

i.e Pard opens 1 club, opps overcall 1 spade, I bid negative x (with 4 hearts and shoratge in opps suit)

any further x by myself would not be negative x ?
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Posted 2004-October-09, 15:21

Hi,

There are a lot rules you could put into place concening "negative doubles" (and responsive double and other doubles)... I have a simple one.

All my doubles are for "takeout" as long as The double doesn';t have some other conventional meaning (ligntner, double of their stayman, double of their jacoby transfre suit, double of 1NT). unless we have found a fit.

What constitutes we have found a fit? If partner has raised (that one is easy), if partner has preempted (we assume to have "found a fit" after either of us has preempted, if we make a transfer bid over partners 1NT, and if partner bids a suit I have promised,,,, Thus, on this auction.

1D-(1S)-Dbl-(any), if partner bids clubs or spades, WE WILL HAVE FOU?ND a fit, so the next double by either player would not be takeout (negative or any ohter word you would like to use to describe it.

At least this is a very simple rule that I can live with.

Ben
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#3 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2004-October-09, 17:35

Just a language clarification:

As far as I know "negative double" only refers to the situation where partner of opener makes a takeout double after his RHO has made an overcall. Takeout double is the general term.

I think it is worth keeping this distinction, as otherwise e.g. "negative X up to 3" etc. becomes much more confusing.
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#4 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-October-12, 07:06

sceptic, on Oct 9 2004, 09:02 PM, said:

any further x by myself would not be negative x ?

A further Dbl means:
"Pard, I am max for my previous double, AND I do not see a profitable fit for our side".
Something like a "card showing" double.
This is because neg X is played by most as an UNLIMITED HAND, so you may be any strngth from 7/8 hcp to even 20+ !
Therefore, the second double tends to show to pard that you have more than just 7-8/9 hcp.

In such situation, the double is cooperative: pard may have not enough defense and decide to pull; or he may not see game in any strain, and be content to take a safe plus score by passing.


Of course, the situation is different for those who play that the negative double is limited (8-11 hcp). This, for example, is rather common in Italy.
In such situation, there is no need for a "card showing double", because the hcp content of hand has been already well defined by the first neg double.
Therefore, the double says : "Pard, I want to punish them. If you pull, I hope you have a very good reason."
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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Posted 2004-October-12, 10:31

I think negative doubles can also be fairly wide ranging, but it depends a lot on the level of bidding.

In my opinion, low level negative doubles should be shape-specific (whatever you agree too.... for instance, I liek the agreement that 1m-(1H)-DBL denies a spade suit... but 1m-(1S)-CBL promise 4+ hearts.., this in not the only way you can play this of course)....

A takeout (negative) double shows an offensive hand, for which no other bid was availalbe. With 20+hcp, usually some other bid is available.
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#6 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-October-12, 14:33

The short answer is yes.

Negative doubles promise something in an unbid major (or both unbid minors if both majors have been bid). Once you've promised it, there's no reason to promise it again.
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Posted 2004-October-12, 15:03

jtfanclub, on Oct 12 2004, 04:33 PM, said:

The short answer is yes.

Negative doubles promise something in an unbid major (or both unbid minors if both majors have been bid). Once you've promised it, there's no reason to promise it again.

Well this doesn't pass the sanity test, at least for all auctions... consider this auction....

1C - (1S) - DBL - (2S)
Pa - (Pa) - DBL

Is theis really a penalty double? How can it be anything more than a even a more offensive hand than the initial double.. a "second takeout double" as it was?

Now, lets assume that the first double promised hearts.... consider this auction

1C - (1S) - DBL - (Pa)
2H - (2S) - DBL

Here, presumably you have found your heart fit, so here, the second double is optional. But these two auctions are quite different.

Ben
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-October-13, 04:00

The term "negative double" refers to the agreement that, playing forcing freebids at the two-level, certain hands that have the distribution but not quite the the strength (hence "negative") for a freebid may double.
1-(1)-dbl-(p)
1NT-(p)-2* 6-9 HCPs, 6 hearts
1-(1)-dbl-(p)
1NT-(p)-2* 6-9 HCPs, 4 hearts, 6 diamonds.
Hence, responders 2nd double (as in Ben's example 1, 11h03) is not negative but it is still t/o.

You may agree to play negative doubles in certain other situations also, but without further agreement all doubles are "positive" with the exception of 1X-(nY)-dbl where X is a suit and nY is a natural overcall in another suit.
When did pass become a 4-letter word? --- WinstonM
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