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Bread and butter misbid Stil trying to learn all those MI/UI things

#1 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-November-27, 00:59

Club night. S opens 1NT, N bids 3. No alert is given. E doubles the 3 bid, and S passes. W asks south about 3 and gets the explanation "a weak hand with 6+ clubs, signoff-ish". W passes, N bids 3. E and S pass to W who bids 3, which is then passed all around.

The confusion arose from the fact N meant 3 as puppet stayman, but this is not the agreed system. There's no convention card. S had no idea what's going on after north's 3 bid so he just elected to pass. E had long clubs.

a) When should N tell the opponents that he misbid, if at all?
b) Is S under any obligation during the auction?
c) Is north's 3 bid legal?
d) Does any of this change if the pair have a convention card that says 3 is a natural signoff?
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#2 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2011-November-27, 03:31


Quote

a) When should N tell the opponents that he misbid, if at all?

In theory, never. In practice, it would be polite to explain after the hand is over.

Quote

b) Is S under any obligation during the auction?

Only to state any agreements as he understands them, which he did.

Quote

c) Is north's 3♥ bid legal?

I expect so. He has UI from the explanation, but since he would bid 3 anyway - I presume - why not? The only worry is if 3 shows spades: now we might adjust because he did not bid 3.

Quote

d) Does any of this change if the pair have a convention card that says 3♣ is a natural signoff?

No.
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#3 User is offline   BunnyGo 

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Posted 2011-November-27, 03:52

@bluejack:

I am not a director, but I was under the impression that if North had misbid with 3 and was alerted to this fact by the alert, he was not allowed to take advantage and run. Am I conflating this with some similar cases?
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#4 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2011-November-27, 04:26

View PostBunnyGo, on 2011-November-27, 03:52, said:

@bluejack:

I am not a director, but I was under the impression that if North had misbid with 3 and was alerted to this fact by the alert, he was not allowed to take advantage and run. Am I conflating this with some similar cases?

You are partially correct. If pass would have been a logical alternative, North should sit. But North knows that South opened 1NT. If North holds a singleton club, pass is not going to be a logical alternative.

And it is very likely that North is short in clubs: South promised 2, East has long clubs (according to the OP) and West passed what should be an obvious takeout double. They should be about 6-5-2-0 around the table.

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#5 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-November-27, 05:03

From my understanding, east's double was meant as lead-directing, and west's pass was of the same variety as south's: "I have no idea what's going on". Clubs were 4-2-2-5, with S holding 4 and E 5. N had 4-3 in the majors.
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#6 User is offline   iviehoff 

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Posted 2011-November-28, 04:41

View PostAntrax, on 2011-November-27, 00:59, said:

c) Is north's 3 bid legal?

It depends how one might plausibly interpret S's pass of 3C if N's 3C really was puppet. N is not allowed to know that S passed on the assumption that N's bid is weakish with long clubs. If S's pass of 3CX, to a puppet Stayman player, is a strong indication that he wants to play in 3CX, because he has a good club suit, then N might plausibly have a logical alternative to pass that. If S's pass merely means "No 5 card major, partner", perhaps with some extra distinction of meaning now that S has an alternative to bidding 3D, then N will of course proceed as he otherwise would in that situation.
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#7 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-November-28, 05:04

Thanks, that makes sense.
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#8 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2011-November-28, 14:03

View Postiviehoff, on 2011-November-28, 04:41, said:

It depends how one might plausibly interpret S's pass of 3C if N's 3C really was puppet. N is not allowed to know that S passed on the assumption that N's bid is weakish with long clubs. If S's pass of 3CX, to a puppet Stayman player, is a strong indication that he wants to play in 3CX, because he has a good club suit, then N might plausibly have a logical alternative to pass that. If S's pass merely means "No 5 card major, partner", perhaps with some extra distinction of meaning now that S has an alternative to bidding 3D, then N will of course proceed as he otherwise would in that situation.

It is an interesting question what a pass of 3 doubled means. Certainly I play it as five clubs with my regular partner, but I seem to be in a small minority. Every other partner I have ever discussed it with plays redouble as "I have clubs" and pass as nothing to say. I think the reason why I am different is that I was brought up on the mini no-trump vulnerable and the first thing I learnt was how to get out of trouble - and I might play 2 doubled but not redoubled.

Playing in the American Nationals with my American partner a few years ago I played 2 redoubled +2 [making 4 as they say here] for a flat board! Same auction!

Of course this is 3 not 2 but I presume one plays the same.
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#9 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-November-29, 00:20

Yeah. It's undiscussed in our partnership, but if I were sitting N I'd expect XX to say "let's play here, I have clubs" and pass to be "nothing to say", as in no 4 or 5 card major (and no reason to bid 3NT if partner has anything more to add). Then I wouldn't know what to make of partner's pass of 3, as logically partner is supposed to bid 3NT or 4 at this point.
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