Help
If GIB opens 1M and I hold 13 points, but can't bid 2NT (fewer than 4 cards in partner's suit), I can't find a bid. 2m requires 14, and 1NT has a maximum of 12. Is this a gap in the system, or am I missing something?
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13 points opposite 1M
#2
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Posted 2011-December-08, 17:23
Could use either 1NT ( which won't be passed by GIB ) or 2♣ then 4 Major.
13TP are crucial as GIB considers 26TP as likely enough for game and since the opening is 12, 13 is not enough for minimum 2♣,♦ etc.
It could be happening in cases where opening is 1♥ and you have 3♥ and 0-3♠ as otherwise you could proceed with 1♠ and then close to 4♥.
It doesn't seem like clear gap, just some edge where you could evaluate your points whether they are GF or invitational.
13TP are crucial as GIB considers 26TP as likely enough for game and since the opening is 12, 13 is not enough for minimum 2♣,♦ etc.
It could be happening in cases where opening is 1♥ and you have 3♥ and 0-3♠ as otherwise you could proceed with 1♠ and then close to 4♥.
It doesn't seem like clear gap, just some edge where you could evaluate your points whether they are GF or invitational.
#3
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Posted 2011-December-09, 12:32
This design is very bad. What happens in human's world is that you open light with some 11 or 10 HCP with distribution and force to game with most 12 HCP (either unbalanced or balanced with good fit) and all 13 HCP hands. You may go down in 3NT sometimes when you find no fit, but that's the cost you open some distributional 10 or 11 HCPs, which may often allow you to find 4M. Also, Gib's actual opening style is not light at all, so it makes no sense to play 2/1 to show 14 TP.
georgi, on 2011-December-08, 17:23, said:
Could use either 1NT ( which won't be passed by GIB ) or 2♣ then 4 Major.
13TP are crucial as GIB considers 26TP as likely enough for game and since the opening is 12, 13 is not enough for minimum 2♣,♦ etc.
It could be happening in cases where opening is 1♥ and you have 3♥ and 0-3♠ as otherwise you could proceed with 1♠ and then close to 4♥.
It doesn't seem like clear gap, just some edge where you could evaluate your points whether they are GF or invitational.
13TP are crucial as GIB considers 26TP as likely enough for game and since the opening is 12, 13 is not enough for minimum 2♣,♦ etc.
It could be happening in cases where opening is 1♥ and you have 3♥ and 0-3♠ as otherwise you could proceed with 1♠ and then close to 4♥.
It doesn't seem like clear gap, just some edge where you could evaluate your points whether they are GF or invitational.
#4
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Posted 2011-December-09, 14:12
Could you give an example of a hand where you can't find a bid?
If you have 13 HCP and 13 TP, your hand will often be 4333. The bid for that is 3NT.
However, a hand like 432 A3 AKT3 QT32 is 13 HCP and 13 TP (because we reduce the shortness points for suits with honors). GIB will bid 2♣ with this; although this bid ostensibly shows 14 TP, it will bid it with a hand with 13 HCP if it can't find any other bid.
If you have 13 HCP and 13 TP, your hand will often be 4333. The bid for that is 3NT.
However, a hand like 432 A3 AKT3 QT32 is 13 HCP and 13 TP (because we reduce the shortness points for suits with honors). GIB will bid 2♣ with this; although this bid ostensibly shows 14 TP, it will bid it with a hand with 13 HCP if it can't find any other bid.
#5
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Posted 2011-December-09, 22:13
Ah, well I'm not sure we knew (I'm sure I didn't) that GIB deducts a point for shortness with an honor until you posted your helpful guide, Barmar. Be that as it may, the rollover description of 1NT when responding to 1M says 6-11 HCP, 12- total points. I believe the bids that are permitted with 13 total points in response to 1M are:
2♥ (if open was 1♠), requires 5+H (and willingness to force to game)
2NT, requires 4-card support, no singletons or voids
3NT, balanced with 3-card support, choice of games
splinter bid, requires 4-card support
That covers a lot of possibilities, but leaves out any 13-point hand with fewer than 3 cards in the suit opened, and hands with exactly 3-card support that have a singleton or void in a side suit (because these don't qualify for a 3NT bid). I get that we can deal with this on an ad hoc basis, choosing to upgrade a good looking 13 to make a 2/1 bid or downgrade a bad looking one to 1NT, but then you have partner convinced you have fewer or more points than actually appear in your hand. I didn't save a hand where this happened but I've seen a couple in the last week or two.
2♥ (if open was 1♠), requires 5+H (and willingness to force to game)
2NT, requires 4-card support, no singletons or voids
3NT, balanced with 3-card support, choice of games
splinter bid, requires 4-card support
That covers a lot of possibilities, but leaves out any 13-point hand with fewer than 3 cards in the suit opened, and hands with exactly 3-card support that have a singleton or void in a side suit (because these don't qualify for a 3NT bid). I get that we can deal with this on an ad hoc basis, choosing to upgrade a good looking 13 to make a 2/1 bid or downgrade a bad looking one to 1NT, but then you have partner convinced you have fewer or more points than actually appear in your hand. I didn't save a hand where this happened but I've seen a couple in the last week or two.
#6
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Posted 2011-December-12, 10:32
If you have 13 HCP and a singleton or void in a side suit, that's 14+ total points, which is enough for a 2/1 bid.
If there's no bid that exactly fits your hand, you find the closest approximation. That's standard bridge bidding.
If there's no bid that exactly fits your hand, you find the closest approximation. That's standard bridge bidding.
#7
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Posted 2011-December-13, 12:42
barmar, on 2011-December-12, 10:32, said:
If you have 13 HCP and a singleton or void in a side suit, that's 14+ total points, which is enough for a 2/1 bid.
If there's no bid that exactly fits your hand, you find the closest approximation. That's standard bridge bidding.
If there's no bid that exactly fits your hand, you find the closest approximation. That's standard bridge bidding.
Okay, I'm not complaining and I don't want to beat a dead horse, was just trying to be helpful in pointing out a gap that might deserve attention. I'm talking about 13 total points, not 13 HCP. That's too few for a 2/1 bid (except hearts) and too many for 1NT as the system defines it. I can live with the answer that we're going to leave these hands without a bid that's defined in the system, but it seems a little odd for a situation that comes up in the first round of bidding.
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