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Response to 1M - Acol

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:07



How do I respond ?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:26

3. no bergen or similar crap in acol
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:31

Ah, natural :) What would I bid with a gf M raise?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:37

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-18, 22:31, said:

Ah, natural :) What would I bid with a gf M raise?


If you didn't have an immediate GF available, typically 2NT or 3NT, you have to start with 2. Not ideal; this is why people often play artificial GF raises.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#5 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:41

Where I live, lots of people play that 2NT is a limit raise or better and I think that is pretty common throughout NZ.
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#6 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-March-18, 22:42

there's a thing called a delayed game raise whereby you bid your own suit (or closest approximation to a suit if you haven't been dealt one) before jumping to 4M.

anyone vaguely competent will know jacoby though, acol or no acol.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 01:44

Thanks, one last question. I don't have a preemptive raise to 3M so I assume I pass and bid 3M next round,
if I can?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 02:00

Or bid 2M now.
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#9 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 02:13

View PostFlameous, on 2012-March-19, 02:00, said:

Or bid 2M now.

Yes, better to support now unless the hand is really bad. In any case, since partner might only have four of them, most hands that look to a 5cM-player like a pre-emptive raise are really only worth a simple raise in 4cM.
Gordon Rainsford
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 02:56

View Postnigel_k, on 2012-March-18, 22:41, said:

Where I live, lots of people play that 2NT is a limit raise or better and I think that is pretty common throughout NZ.

It's fairly common in the UK too.
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 04:48

Where I used to live this structure was common:

1M 2NT = 11/12 raise or 17+ raise or 14-16 splinter
1M 3M = 15/16 bal raise
1M double jump = 10-13 or 17+ splinter
1M 3NT = 12-14 raise
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 10:06

With the original hand: 3. With a GF raise it depends on other agreements. Most serious Acolites these days play 1M - 2NT as a good raise. Those that do not typically use 1M - 3NT as a "pudding raise" showing minimum game values and no shortage; this one is officially a part of Standard English. A (very) few still play some form of Swiss - in the very first version of Acol I learned, for example, 1M - 4 was defined as a game-forcing raise. Finally, the traditional method that Acol used to cope with this hand type was the "delayed game raise". The auction 1M - new suit; any - 4M is used to show a game-forcing raise and may contain 4 card support. Without any agreements I would use this last path as it is valid in any version of Acol. Usually this should be one of the areas you discuss with a partner early on.
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#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 11:14

View Postjillybean, on 2012-March-19, 01:44, said:

Thanks, one last question. I don't have a preemptive raise to 3M so I assume I pass and bid 3M next round,
if I can?


You can't bid 3M if you have already put down the dummy. Normally you owe partner a response if you have 6 or more points.
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#14 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 11:31

View PostVampyr, on 2012-March-19, 11:14, said:

You can't bid 3M if you have already put down the dummy.

She knows that. That's why she said "if I can".
Gordon Rainsford
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#15 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 13:19

I do think that all of these Jacoby 2NT etc responses are pitched rather high for the novice forum. And comments such as "Anyone vaguely competent will know Jacoby 2NT" don't really help novices etc with their confidence, apart from anything else.

When I'm teaching term 1, I teach that the OP hand is a raise to 3. If the hand is slightly stronger, then the hand is a raise to 4S. Delayed game raises or Jacoby 2NT etc are definitely 2nd year material.
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#16 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 15:47

Quote

When I'm teaching term 1, I teach that the OP hand is a raise to 3. If the hand is slightly stronger, then the hand is a raise to 4S. Delayed game raises or Jacoby 2NT etc are definitely 2nd year material.


This was one of the matters that annoyed me most when trying to teach. Pupils wanted to bid slams and ask for aces and all that "cool" stuff. I tried to fix hands enough that they'd never have chance to try for anything like that. :P
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#17 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 07:12

View PostFlameous, on 2012-March-19, 15:47, said:

This was one of the matters that annoyed me most when trying to teach. Pupils wanted to bid slams and ask for aces and all that "cool" stuff. I tried to fix hands enough that they'd never have chance to try for anything like that. :P

Playing Acol with a beginner last night I raised 1 to 4 on Kxx KTxxx AKx XX. Making 5, thank you partner.

Later I raised 1 to 4 on 8xxx KTxx Kxxx A. Making 4, thanks again partner.

Slams are pretty rare, really, and there is a lot to be said for not complicating matters and just bidding game - especially if declarer is not yet at a level to play close slams correctly.
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#18 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 07:29

View PostFlameous, on 2012-March-19, 15:47, said:

This was one of the matters that annoyed me most when trying to teach. Pupils wanted to bid slams and ask for aces and all that "cool" stuff. I tried to fix hands enough that they'd never have chance to try for anything like that. :P

I think it's the slams & cool stuff that capture the imaginations of new players - whether or not they get them right.
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#19 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 10:08

View PostFlameous, on 2012-March-19, 02:00, said:

Or bid 2M now.

Or 4M.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#20 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-March-20, 12:01

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2012-March-20, 10:08, said:

Or 4M.


That was my thought too.

Partner opening 1M at acol always has one of two things (ignoring 4441): A five card heart suit in an unbalanced hand, or a strong nt. If you want to be in game opposite both of those things you should bid game. If I give partner a quite ordinary 5422: Axxxx xx Axxx Kx say, I seem to have a pretty good game. (needs only 2-2 spades). Thus, if you do not open light, you should raise to game with this hand.

Regardless, when you bid 3M, you should have an agreement about which minimum hands raise. When playing a limit raise in 5cM its normal to raise on basically any 5431 hand, as they play so much better than 5332, but in acol partner will never be 5332 unless 15-17, so the limit raise should be a bit weaker, and you need a bit more to raise, compared with a strong and five system.
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