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Negative X then bid What does it show

#1 User is offline   apjames 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 19:03



What does making a Neg X, then bidding show?
How would you approach the hand?
Would anyone open a 15-17 1NT on the north cards?

Thanks in advance
Andrew.
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 19:11

x and 3d must be forcing...

Just pass with less.
--


Yes easy 1nt opener for me but I dont think that is a novice or beg. level bid.


1nt is a more advanced bid for sure.


I really think this hand is far from a beginner/novice level problem.
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#3 User is offline   Charlie Yu 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 20:30

neg x=4, unless GF hand with 5.
3=I also have diamond, keep bidding
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#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 21:20

Imo X and 3D is non-forcing. I don't know about standard though. I would pass 3D and feel comfortable about it.
I just noticed it's beginner forum so I guess my answer isn't very helpful. I guess you gotta learn what standard is in area you play by asking local good players. Both agreements make some sense I guess.
I strongly prefer 3D being either weak or invite though I think playing it as GF is pretty weak, I mean we could have bid 3N/3H with forcing hands...

With actual S hand he could have passed 3clubs comfortably but with something along the lines of 4-2-6-1 it wouldn't be appealing option though.
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#5 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 21:51

I would not open 1N with north's hand. I would open 1C and rebid 1H over 1D, 2H over 1H, and 2S (!) over 1S. Yes, I only have 3 spades, but they are all honors, and I have a singleton that can be used for ruffing. If I'm going to fudge, I'd rather raise spades with this hand than rebid 1N with a singleton D, or rebid 2C with A8xxx.

As for X then 3D, on this auction, I play this as forcing. These auctions can often be subtle, but in this case, I don't see the need to act as south with a weak hand over a preempt. So I think X and 3D shows 4 spades and a real diamond suit and is forcing.

But you shouldn't draw too many generalizations from this; X-and-bid can mean many things, and it really, really depends on the auction.
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 22:23

apjames said:

What does making a Neg X, then bidding show?

The way I play it.. a negative double limits partners hand, if partner had a game forcing hand they will make a bid rather than double. With gf points and this shape, south would bid 3. With a flat hand and gf, 3 would ask North to bid 3N with a stopper.

apjames said:

Would anyone open a 15-17 1NT on the north cards?

I don't open 1nt with a singleton but it is very tempting with this hand. You can't show the hand after opening 1.
So I might make an exception here :)
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#7 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-26, 22:28

so we agree this is far far from a novice/beg hand.....very complex


given constraints I think 3nt seems very normal.
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#8 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 04:12

Oh dear, what a lot of unhelpful replies.

Yes, this is a difficult question which it is hard to answer completely at a Novice/Beginner level. But let's start by discussing an important general principle.

First, a different auction.


3 here is nonforcing and consequently limited. Therefore,

shows a stronger hand than above.

On the other hand,

would be a forcing bid - effectively game-forcing in fact. The general principle here is that if you double then make a bid, you are showing a different hand than you would have by making the bid directly. So

is not a game-forcing hand with diamonds. Unless you, like wyman, believe that the direct 3 bid denies spades (not entirely unreasonable but I think not standard). Anyway, the standard conclusion would be that this sequence shows a hand which merely wants to compete to 3 but is not strong enough to force to game.

On the actual hand, I think South would do better to pass 3.
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#9 User is offline   sasioc 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 04:23

Mgoetze seems to have covered the original question pretty well.

I would not consider opening this 1NT. I think opening 1 is fine and if p bids 1 (the only time I can't show my hearts) I will raise her and feel pretty good about that. I don't play that a raise there shows 4 cards (it being potentially 3 is standard in my neck of the woods, doubly so if unbal). If you do play that 1:1, 2 shows four cards, you need to have a chat with p about what to do with 3415 and no extras.

I would have passed three as South because you are now known to have a club fit.
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#10 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 04:57

View Postmike777, on 2012-March-26, 19:11, said:

x and 3d must be forcing...
<snip>


No - Why did you not bid 3D the round before?

Basically it comes down to the question, if you have a single
suited hand, strength unsuitable to bid the suit direct, you
go via neg. X, espesially if you are short in their suit.

You dont need to act with length in their suit, but you have
to act with shortness.

If you play a direct 3D as forrcing, and the delayed way of
bidding as forcing, you have lots of bids to cover the strong
hands, but no bids for the weaker hands.

Regrading the 2nd original question - the choosen way seems ok.

And I would not open 1NT with the North hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#11 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 05:30

I'd hate to bid 3D with the south hand (say add an extra king) then miss the spade fit when W raises to 4H. Playing 3D as forcing even after a neg X is fine. This fits in nicely with the idea of making as much use as you can with the extra space available after opps bid.

But on the actual hand, south has a minimum neg X and club support. He can pass 3C.

ahydra
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 05:40

double + show suit in response to partners 1x opening is normally a stop with a long suit. The suit couln't be bid the round earlier because would had been strong. This is the way to bid 6 card majors after 1-(2) for example.
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#13 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 09:25

Mgoetze's post is model for the N/B section. I will try to add to it.

1. Choice of opening. A 1N opening would never be advisable in a beginning bridge class, because it contains a singleton. However, as you develop your game, you appreciate the issues with planning your rebid.

For instance, if you start with 1, and partner bids 1, you have a mildly uncomfortable rebid. You would prefer a 6th club for a 2 rebid, and the hand needs about another queen for a 2 reverse (which is 100% forcing). A rebid of 1N with a singleton in an unbid suit is not advisable. A raise to 2 is reasonable, and within the point count range, even though you would prefer a 4th spade.

In spite of the "no singleton" rule for opening 1N, you can at least consider it, but even the intermediate / advanced posters would (should) opt for a 1 opening because the hand is pretty lousy with the singleton King, and the club suit without any secondary honors (Q's and J's) or intermediates (10's or 9's).

2. Responder's choice. A negative double is perfect. You have just enough strength (a nice 8 count) and four spades.

3. Opener's rebid.
I would prefer 2N over 3. I have a good heart stopper, and my 9 is a good 'combining' card. Sometimes partner turns up with the T or J which makes my 9 important. Rebidding a suit of A8732 isn't a good idea, even though you only promised three when you opened 2. My 2nd choice is 2, since partner is promising four and sometimes has five, and with my singleton, a 4-3 fit won't play too bad.

4. Responder's rebid. I like 3. It is non-forcing, for reasons that Mgoetze explains.

5. Opener's 2nd rebid
. Over 3, opener should pass. Responder is guaranteeing six diamonds for this call, and a singleton King is more than adequate support. Responder probably holds 7-9 points and 4 and 6, so 3N needs a very special hand from responder (imagine Kxxx x AQT9xx xx) and it could be a disaster, going down three or four.
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#14 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 09:29

View PostPhil, on 2012-March-27, 09:25, said:

4. Responder's rebid. I like 3. It is non-forcing, for reasons that Mgoetze explains.


Yikes -- for those playing at home, I'm starting a thread in I/A :)
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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