[Quartic]

Our next bad hand we overbid to a slam:

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4NT was rckb, and 6♥ showed 1 keycard and a higher ranked (ie ♠) void. Should East still show his ♠ void after partner shows a stop with 3NT, or is West not good enough for 4NT? (or did we mess up somewhere else?)

[Cyberyeti]

To me E has massively overbid, even with a void, an aceless 10 count with a lot of quacks is not a splinter in this type of auction to me where partner may be forced to guess over 4♠ or 5♠. I'd probably start with 3♣ fit (which to me is values for raise to 3+).

W is definitely entitled to bid 4N.

x, Kxxx, AKxx, Kxxx is a decent grand and not a huge hand for the splinter.

[wyman]

I can live with east's splinter, though I think he's a touch light. West should XX to show the ace of spades, east should bid 4H, and west has a tough call. But east has a way easier time not showing his void once west shows a first rd ctrl in spades with XX.

[mike777]

east has her splinter bid.....a splinter shows 4h and a 7 loser hand....just what east has.

3nt says west has spade values so east should not show void now.


west might pass 4h no cue over 3nt wasted qs...close decision but at MP maybe pushing for the slam a bit much?

again note east pulled 3nt but did not cue after limiting her hand.
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agree west should xx not bid 3nt and there is no way east has:

x...kxxx...akxx...kxxx on this auction.

[Quartic]

I see there's a bit of food for thought for us here - we haven't discussed redouble at all in this auction. I was East, and I would have cued 4♣ with x...kxxx...akxx...kxxx over 3NT. I see there's a fair bit of disagreement about whether I was good enough for the splinter - at the table I thought the ♠ shortage was the most important feature of my hand (the only other bid I had available was 2♠ - we don't play fit-jumps).

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2012-March-26, 17:34, said:

east has her splinter bid.....a splinter shows 4h and a 7 loser hand....just what east has.

I don't use LTC, but Q with no balancing ace I thought was an extra loser. It's certainly an appalling 7 loser hand.

Quote

3nt says west has spade values so east should not show void now.

agreed

Quote

west might pass 4h no cue over 3nt wasted qs...close decision but at MP maybe pushing for the slam a bit much?

again note east pulled 3nt but did not cue after limiting her hand.
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agree west should xx not bid 3nt and there is no way east has:

x...kxxx...akxx...kxxx on this auction.

Probably not, but a decent less quacky 10 count rather than this one x, Kxxx, AKxx, xxxx is plenty. My point about the hand I gave was that if the next hand bids 4♠ or 5♠ over 3♠, how is partner supposed to guess what to do if you can have a hand as bad as you actually have, and some hands that will make a grand easily for the splinter (can even be a bit better than the hand I gave). If the splinter actually shows a little more as a minimum, it's a bit easier.

[mike777]

2h, 2d 2clubs plus no ace=7 losers.

your example is an adjusted 5.5 loser hand.....


1s+2h+1d+2c-.5=5.5 adjustment for all those controls.

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Key points..pard pulls 3nt and does not cue just bids 4h...


wasted Qs....tough hand but I think at MP i give up and not bid slam.

If you think pard can have an even better hand than your exampleand just bid 4h over 3nt hmmmmmm no!

I guess I think pard has a normal everyday hand...you expect more...alot more......

For me a splinter is a very limited bid......for you...other.

[Codo]

I like the spinter, it shows around 11-14 HCps and a singelton. 10 HCPS and a void is surely not too bad for that bid.
I do not like 3 NT, if this was not discussed. Why should NT give me as many tricks as hearts in my 5-4 fit? I had bid 3 NT with AKx or AQJ f.e.

And besides this: Do I really want to give up on slam already? A Minimum like x,Kxxx,KJxx,Kxxx makes slam close to laydown.

What to do afterwards is tricky. IF 4 ♥ shows minimum, there is a case for passing, but this is hard to do after the 3 NT bid which did not do the hand any justice.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2012-March-26, 18:43, said:

2h, 2d 2clubs plus no ace=7 losers.

your example is an adjusted 5.5 loser hand.....


1s+2h+1d+2c-.5=5.5 adjustment for all those controls.

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Key points..pard pulls 3nt and does not cue just bids 4h...


wasted Qs....tough hand but I think at MP i give up and not bid slam.

If you think pard can have an even better hand than your exampleand just bid 4h over 3nt hmmmmmm no!

I guess I think pard has a normal everyday hand...you expect more...alot more......

For me a splinter is a very limited bid......for you...other.

Sorry yes I can't count, but that says you potentially splinter on void, xxxx, Axxx, Qxxxx 7 losers, partner has no chance of evaluating this if a barrage is then put up by his RHO, there has to be some common sense. 544s can only have 9 losers so a 7 loser 544 can be pretty bad.

I just don't think this hand has enough high cards to want to splinter. You say a splinter is limited, you're going to have an awful lot of better heart raises where you're completely guessing when you make your "better raise" bid and the next hand plonks a lot of spades on the table. I have no problem with the splinter being limited in the unopposed auction, but I think you need it to be slightly less limited in competition.

[Fluffy]

3NT followed by 4NT is totally inconsistent if 3NT was meant to play, West's bidding has no sense. Evaluation, agrements, etc are nothing compared to that.

The slam is playable anyway hands do not fit particularilly well, but not the worse spot (I'd rather play 6♥ than 3NT)

[HighLow21]

The slam is fine and an unfortunate down 1. East is 6 losers (unadjusted) so splinter is great. West is 5 losers. You should expected zero losers under that scenario. A keycard ask will point to a missing keycard so 6 is the right level.

Sometimes LTC doesn't work out well.

The reason it doesn't work here is that the combined hands have 1/0 losers in spades (duplication), 1/2 losers in hearts (excessive trump strength), 2/2 losers in diamonds (accurate here), and 1/2 losers in clubs (wrong: 1 opposite 2 usually means no losers combined. Here it does not).

There is massive duplication in the E/W hands and if you have the devices to find it, do so; otherwise, this hand will often belong in slam and often make, and here it doesn't make. Maybe East should have recognized the massive duplication in spades once the void was exposed, but there was nothing he could do after 6♥ to revert to 5♥.

[dwar0123]

Looks to me like a reasonable slam that went down, I probably would agree to not show the void after the ace of spades is known but I still can't fault anyone here for getting to 6♥

[rmnka447]

No problem with East's splinter -- it is what it should be -- 11 to 16 value (including distribution points).

But after West's 3 NT bid, East knows West has some wasted values. When West persists with RKCB, East ought to just show the 1 keycard and forget about the void.

West, too, should realize that he holds some wastage because of partner's ♠ splinter. If East just shows 1 Keycard, then settling in 5 ♥ should become a serious consideration.

[Codo]

rmnka447, on 2012-March-27, 20:04, said:

But after West's 3 NT bid, East knows West has some wasted values. When West persists with RKCB, East ought to just show the 1 keycard and forget about the void.

West, too, should realize that he holds some wastage because of partner's ♠ splinter. If East just shows 1 Keycard, then settling in 5 ♥ should become a serious consideration.

Sorry to be rude, but this is plain silly. If you believe that partner is dumb and blind, better look for another partner or another game. East had described his hand with the splinter and the 4 ♥ bid. IF West now asks for KCS you may believe that he knows what he is doing or that he is dumb. In the first case, give the correct answer, in the second- ask yourself, why you do not deserve better partners.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

having a 5-4 fit in a major, a know shortage in their suit, I would
never play 3NT as natural, but so be it, although this is too advanced
for me.

East did not show any add. values with the 4H bid, merly, that he prefers
hearts to NT.
West knowes he has huge wastage in their suit, without the spade values
he has a min opener, nevertheless he drives on, he asks for key cards,
East makes the agreed response, the partnership goes over board, East gets
blamed for overbidding?

Sry, did I mistate the auction?

Splinter in competive auction have a different focus than in uncontested auction.

The main tasks, is to have a better decision foundation, if they bid on over our
game, which happened here, the vulnerability did not make the sac. very likely,
but unlikely does not mean, it gets ruled out ... and I dont think at different
colors the bidding would have gone different.
If West thinks, slam is on, he can make a forcing pass, this will allow his partner
to tell West, if he has any add. SI.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[dwar0123]

Codo, on 2012-March-28, 02:43, said:

Sorry to be rude, but this is plain silly. If you believe that partner is dumb and blind, better look for another partner or another game. East had described his hand with the splinter and the 4 ♥ bid. IF West now asks for KCS you may believe that he knows what he is doing or that he is dumb. In the first case, give the correct answer, in the second- ask yourself, why you do not deserve better partners.

I don't believe it is a question of trusting partner; I believe it is taking advantage of an opportunity to keep the auction one level lower without sacrificing any useful information.

Your partner already knows you have at most 1♠, you know your partner has the A♠. I doubt it is possible to create a hand for partner where knowing you have a void instead of a singleton would help him place the contract correctly. If you can create one I won't consider you rude.

[Codo]

I do not know that partner has the ace of spades, how should I?

Would his bid be any different with KQJ in spades instead of AQ? Actually the first holding looks more like a natural 3 NT bid opposite a splinter then the later.

Partner decided to bid 3 NT and now to bid 4 NT. Why? I have no idea. Maybe 3 NT was intended as non natural, maybe he reevaluated his hand during the later bidding, maybe I forgot an agreement (and 3 NT was Chicane Key card...), what do I know?
Do I know that he holds the actual hand or maybe KQx,AQTxx,Axxx,Kx? Had his bid been any different?

But you had missed a laydown slam because you tried to be tricky...

[dwar0123]

Codo, on 2012-March-28, 03:32, said:

I do not know that partner has the ace of spades, how should I?

Would his bid be any different with KQJ in spades instead of AQ? Actually the first holding looks more like a natural 3 NT bid opposite a splinter then the later.

Partner decided to bid 3 NT and now to bid 4 NT. Why? I have no idea. Maybe 3 NT was intended as non natural, maybe he reevaluated his hand during the later bidding, maybe I forgot an agreement (and 3 NT was Chicane Key card...), what do I know?
Do I know that he holds the actual hand or maybe KQx,AQTxx,Axxx,Kx? Had his bid been any different?

But you had missed a laydown slam because you tried to be tricky...

I don't know their systems, but if they showed specifically the A♠ then I believe not showing the void is called for.

[Quartic]

We didn't have a way to show the ♠Ace. There has been discussion here that West could have used redouble here (instead of 3NT) to show first round control in spades. Now East knows not to show the void. Whether West can still stop in time isn't clear.