[dboxley]

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This has probably been discussed before but I missed it. What is the consensus of opinion about the meaning of the 3NT rebid? It doesn't make sense to have it show a point spread (like 25-27) since it jams the auction and we are already forced to game by the 2D bid. Are there any special meanings used by anyone?

[Phil]

Depends if we play Kokish.

[kenrexford]

Without using a special tricky tool, for most people I play with (who use Kokish), this 3NT call shows a solid minor hand with a minimum for a 2♣ opening. A classic example might be ♠Ax ♥Ax ♦AKQJxx ♣Axx. But, there are variations, of course.

[dboxley]

 Phil, on 2012-April-06, 10:55, said:

Depends if we play Kokish.

I don't, mainly because I've never heard of anyone who plays it (with the possible exception of Kokish). But thanks anyway.

[dboxley]

 kenrexford, on 2012-April-06, 11:07, said:

Without using a special tricky tool, for most people I play with (who use Kokish), this 3NT call shows a solid minor hand with a minimum for a 2♣ opening. A classic example might be ♠Ax ♥Ax ♦AKQJxx ♣Axx. But, there are variations, of course.

Thanks. Do you have any ideas what it might be used for if not playing Kokish?

[Phil]

 dboxley, on 2012-April-06, 13:25, said:

I don't, mainly because I've never heard of anyone who plays it (with the possible exception of Kokish). But thanks anyway.

LOL

[lalldonn]

If you don't play that crazy rare Kokish convention, it shows about 25-27 balanced. Sorry for jamming the auction, maybe that explains why some people play that convention!

[kenrexford]

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-06, 15:07, said:

If you don't play that crazy rare Kokish convention, it shows about 25-27 balanced. Sorry for jamming the auction, maybe that explains why some people play that convention!

Eh, Kokish in its curent form is somewhat less important. If 2♦ is GF and waiting, then Opener can bid 2NT with 22+, knowing that the auction will not stop, if prepared to then bid on after 3NT occasionally. For example, with 26 HCP, opposite a positive of 2 queens or at least a King, the partnership has at least 29 HCP, so perhaps raising 3NT to 4NT is not the end of the world.

Obviously, Kokish is better, butnot as critical is 2NT logically cannot be passed.

[gnasher]

Playing 2♦ positive, I don't think it's obvious that Kokish is better than natural. Kokish gives you more accuracy when opener is balanced, but less when he has hearts.

Also, if you don't play Kokish I agree with dboxley that opener should rebid 2NT on all balanced hands. Responder assumes he's opposite 22-24 and bids accordingly. If opener has more than that, he moves again after responder signs off in game. That means that we reach 4NT with 25 opposite 5, but that will usually make, and it's plainly better than having to start the auction at the four-level.

[lalldonn]

 gnasher, on 2012-April-07, 03:13, said:

Also, if you don't play Kokish I agree with dboxley that opener should rebid 2NT on all balanced hands. Responder assumes he's opposite 22-24 and bids accordingly. If opener has more than that, he moves again after responder signs off in game. That means that we reach 4NT with 25 opposite 5, but that will usually make, and it's plainly better than having to start the auction at the four-level.

I don't think that is obvious. It's a huge cost that you will always play 4NT when you would often have played 3NT. You reach 4NT with worse than 25 and 5, you get there 25 opposite 4 or 3 as well (2D is normally bid with a king I believe). And you have no quantitative invites to slam when partner is 25-27 since he is showing that with a 4NT bid (unless you really want to use 5NT for that?) Also what if partner bids stayman then raises your response to 4? Do you have to bid blackwood now because you have an extra point or two? Or raise to 5 quantitatively? Or do you make up different responses to stayman for that hand altogether? The auctions with 25+ are consistently awful if you start with 2NT.

That said, neither 2NT nor 3NT leads to good auctions with that hand. This is one of the reasons I've never liked the system of 2D GF and 2H weak. I even prefer bidding 2D on all hands (along with Kokish of course) to playing that system, popular though it is.

(View also colored by - my system forced me to 4NT with 17+ opposite 14+ both balanced in Memphis, where we had a queen guess to make and went down)

[Phil]

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-07, 10:34, said:

This is one of the reasons I've never liked the system of 2D GF and 2H weak. I even prefer bidding 2D on all hands (along with Kokish of course) to playing that system, popular though it is.

Hi Josh.

[lalldonn]

I will neither confirm nor deny except to say we both use this handle and often throw in decoys. Actually we both try to type like Josh since it's easier than typing like Justin lol

[Phil]

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-08, 09:19, said:

I will neither confirm nor deny except to say we both use this handle and often throw in decoys. Actually we both try to type like Josh since it's easier than typing like Justin lol

You can run but you can't hide.

[Fluffy]

I have rebid 2NT forcing all my life, and the use of 3NT is clear, long solid minor with outside strenght. However that is on a negative 2♦ context.