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Gerber Help needed to understand

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 07:12

I see on another topic, the general consensus is Gerber is not a good convention.

I was told 4clubs is gerber after NT so based on the following, can someone explain to me why Gerber is so bad

As I really cant see how you can confuse this bid as anything else but Gerber


1NT - 4 C = Ace ask
2NT - 4C = Ace ask

1NT - 4NT = Quantative
2NT - 4NT = Quantative

surely it must have some use???????
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Posted 2004-November-08, 07:39

I dont think Gerber is a bad convention, almost everyone play it after NT.
Its good when we dont have a trump suit.
The are alternatives for the 4c, like
1NT-4c some play as showing hearts, so they have can play 4H/4S naturally and decide who they prefer to be the declarer of the hand.
there are some less ovious sequences ,
for example
1NT-2c
2H - 4c
here also 4nt is quentative but some might play 4c as splitner and i myself used to play this 4c as showing 4 card club suit (3c would show 5 cards) to find slams (not that i recomment it)
same after transfers
1NT-2h
2s 4c
could be played as a self splinter.
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Posted 2004-November-08, 07:55

Gerber is just fine. It's not the greatest tool ever invented, it doesn't come up very often, but it CAN be useful! People who say they don't want to waste a bid on this convention just waste their 4 bid to something even more useless. Over 2NT however, it might be better to use 4 for something else (you might need some extra bids to describe your hand), and use 4 as Gerber.

The standard Gerber can be improved a LOT! Normally, 5 will ask for Kings. If you use a step-1 response after the initial Gerber answer (4 after 4 answer, 4 after 4 answer, 5 after 4 or 4NT response - 4NT would be to play), then you save yourself some extra space in most situations. You can even use Roman responses so you'll know what Aces partner has exactly when he has 2. You can even start showing specific Kings, and there are many other possibilities to fine-tune this convention.
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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 07:56

I don't think there is a general consensus that gerber is bad. Besides, I took exception with the attack on Gerber in the othre thread. What is bad is people who, for reasons on their own, play all 4C bids as gerber, or other people who refuse to play any 4C bid as gerber. This leads to a lot of problems... I knew a person who played 4C here as gerber...


1C-1H
2C-2NT
3C-3NT
4C <<---- meant this as gerber....

Others hearing this bid will take the 4C as Gerber when opener meant it as not gerber....

This stuff is silly, and is why so many people don't like Gerber. Play it right and it is a necessary, and useful convention.


Ben
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 07:56

It is I who thinks the world would be better off without Gerber. The reason being that Gerber has close to no use. Why? Because to use Gerber you need a very specific hand, which is only interested in aces. It so happens that last time I had such a hand was 10 years ago :rolleyes:
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#6 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 08:30

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 01:56 PM, said:

I don't think there is a general consensus that gerber is bad. Besides, I took exception with the attack on Gerber in the othre thread. What is bad is people who, for reasons on their own, play all 4C bids as gerber, or other people who refuse to play any 4C bid as gerber. This leads to a lot of problems... I knew a person who played 4C here as gerber...


1C-1H
2C-2NT
3C-3NT
4C <<---- meant this as gerber....

Most textbooks suggest Gerber is on only as a Jumpbid, so the given sequence would not be misunderstood.
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#7 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 08:33

1NT 2C
2D 2H weak scramble for either major
2S NF 5 S 4H invitational
2NT game invitation may or may not contain 4 card major
3C/D natural game force, generally slam-ish
3H/S smolen, showing 5 of the un-bid major and 4 of the bid major, GF
3NT to play
4C Roman gerber (0314 or 1430) then 2 minimum and 2 maximum
4D 5-5+ majors game forcing and non-slamish
4H key card for clubs
4S key card for diamonds


This is the agreement I have with my reg p, we agreed this 4 months ago, does thisRoman gerber constitute a good use of the 4!C bid (in your opinion)
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#8 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:13

Hum.. my opinions:

1NT-2C-2D-...
2H = scramble. I don't like this but that's a personal thing, lol.
4C = roman gerber. It's ok to use it if you like it. I don't :huh:
4H/S = I would keep this as natural. Too easy to forget it's RKCB and you can already show a minor with the 3m bid.
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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:21

So you don't like Gerber. Does this also mean you don't play it, or just to satisfy your partner? And if you don't play it, may I ask what alternative use you have for an immediate 4 bid?
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#10 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:28

I play keri with my regular pard :huh:

In keri 4C is transfer to 4H. You can follow up with 4NT if you want to ask for keys. This is our "gerber" lol :)
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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:32

sceptic, on Nov 8 2004, 09:33 AM, said:

4H key card for clubs
4S key card for diamonds

I remember that post with 6 hearts and 4 spades, where some of us like Ben Ron and myself thought the right bid after 2c-2d is 4H.
Why do you need a key card for minor now ? partner can have a doublton in this minor, so why not just bid 3m ?
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#12 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:44

Gerber's OK. I can even remember once in the last 10 years when it came up :huh: I know a pair that plays 4 is ALWAYS Gerber. They pre-announce it and wear it like a badge of honor. Pretty funny; I think they have about 100 MPs between them.

Just make a few general rules. Gerber is ALWAYS a jump (5) if necessary), always over a bid of NT, and doesn't apply when we have raised a suit earlier in the auction.
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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:44

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 11:28 AM, said:

I play keri with my regular pard :huh:

In keri 4C is transfer to 4H. You can follow up with 4NT if you want to ask for keys. This is our "gerber" lol :)

Are you saying

1NT-2C
2H-4C <<---- is transfer to hearts?

If not, what is your point.. The rest of the world does this with Texas transfer...

1NT-4D
4H-4NT <-- RKCB for hearts

And we keep the following auction as quant.

1NT-2D
2H-4NT <-- quantitative with a heart suit
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#14 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:46

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 07:44 AM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 11:28 AM, said:

I play keri with my regular pard :huh:

In keri 4C is transfer to 4H. You can follow up with 4NT if you want to ask for keys. This is our "gerber" lol :)

Are you saying

1NT-2C
2H-4C <<---- is transfer to hearts?

If not, what is your point.. The rest of the world does this with Texas transfer...

1NT-4D
4H-4NT <-- RKCB for hearts

And we keep the following auction as quant.

1NT-2D
2H-4NT <-- quantitative with a heart suit

Ben - in Keri, the auction: 1N - 2 - 2 doesn't exist; 2 always relays to 2. Keri also uses South African Texas, so 4 = spades. Your 3rd auction is still quantitative.
"Phil" on BBO
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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:51

exactly, so what was the point.. playing KERI and south african transfer, does not address whether Gerber is a good convention or not. And I assure you, the number of beginners or intermeidiate players who play keri is extremely small..
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-November-08, 09:52

inquiry, on Nov 8 2004, 04:44 PM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 8 2004, 11:28 AM, said:

I play keri with my regular pard :huh:

In keri 4C is transfer to 4H. You can follow up with 4NT if you want to ask for keys. This is our "gerber" lol :)

Are you saying

1NT-2C
2H-4C <<---- is transfer to hearts?

If not, what is your point.. The rest of the world does this with Texas transfer...

1NT-4D
4H-4NT <-- RKCB for hearts

And we keep the following auction as quant.

1NT-2D
2H-4NT <-- quantitative with a heart suit

No, I meant

1NT 4C = transfer to hearts, follow up with 4NT RKCB if you want.

1NT 2D
2H 4/5NT = quantitative with a 5332, respectively non-forcing and forcing.

In keri 1NT-2C forces 2D, so

1NT 2C
2H 4C

should not exist. It can of course happen if opener decides to evade the 2D mandatory response. That would be non-systemic, and therefore natural. It would probably show 5 good hearts, 3 diams (in case opener wanted to pass the 2D response) and a max. Then 4C should be a splinter because responder could setup a force by bidding 3H, a bid that doesn't make much sense as invitational at this stage.
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