[Stephen Tu]

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Yes, nothing makes on this hand. But it's very easy to construct hands where 4 sp makes and 3nt goes down; missing 9 cd major fits can't be good on average.
My personal feelings on Lebensohl auctions are that the priorities with GF strength should be:
1. 5+cd other major
2. 4cd other major (bid stayman cue without stopper, or 2nt follow by cue with stopper)
3. 3nt (either showing or denying stopper)
4. 3m (enough strength for 5m, maybe enough for 6)

I don't personally think it should bid 3m on 4oM5+m hands, I prefer stayman (unless closer to slam zone), since I am going to usu want to play 3nt unless major fit, but I could be convinced otherwise.

[barmar]

2NT followed by 3♠ is only invitational (I checked the book "Lebesohl Convention Complete", and it agrees with this). The book bid with the North hand is an immediate 3♠, which shows 5+♠ and GF strength, and is agnostic about ♥ stoppers. Simulations frequently override this, with results split between 2NT, 3♠, and penalty double. Penalty double looks like it's best on this hand, although I think the defense has to be very careful to keep it from take the ♦ finesse.

[Stephen Tu]

OK if it's sim overriding book bid.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2012-May-04, 16:26, said:

2NT followed by 3♠ is only invitational (I checked the book "Lebesohl Convention Complete", and it agrees with this). The book bid with the North hand is an immediate 3♠, which shows 5+♠ and GF strength, and is agnostic about ♥ stoppers. Simulations frequently override this, with results split between 2NT, 3♠, and penalty double. Penalty double looks like it's best on this hand, although I think the defense has to be very careful to keep it from take the ♦ finesse.

Will admit to Barry'w 3S bid and to the same understanding of what it means. Will pay off to the sims.

[pigpenz]

so double of 2♥ still shows ♠'s
at least I thought that is what GIB still plays unless its only on over 2♣
anyone know for sure.

if not
2♠competitive
3♠/2NT leb invitational
3♠ direct forcing

[Stephen Tu]

I think dbl of 2h is penalty the way GIB plays it.

If it were ever changed I'd prefer it to be negative/takeout, usu 4s2h(34), maybe about 6-8 pts or so.

The meanings of 2s/3s, 2nt follow by 3s are all standard as pigpenz posted. I just wanted to make sure 3s was default book bid ahead of choosing to bid 2nt ... 3nt, because otherwise you miss 9, possibly ten card spade fits! But if it thinks that playing 3nt after sim works out more often, I'll let GIB have its opinion.

[barmar]

The Lebensohl book recommends penalty doubles. I don't know what expert concensus is, except that they all recommend against stolen bid doubles.

Penalty doubles are probably best against natural, single-suited bids, to keep them from stealing. But with two-suited bids, it just tells the next player that he should look for the second suit.

When I've been making out CC's with other partners, the most common agreement is negative doubles at the 3 level, penalty at the 2 level.

[Stephen Tu]

OK, so GIB likes to bid 3m holding 4M 5+m. I suppose that is playable. But surely it should bid 3M holding 5M 4m?? How is it going to show 5 hearts when I don't conveniently have four of them? Why won't it bid 3H directly?

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[nathan2008]

what would it be if u bid 3d/3s instead of 3c here? (I mean for the original hand)

[Bbradley62]

nathan2008, on 2012-June-06, 17:20, said:

what would it be if u bid 3d/3s instead of 3c here? (I mean for the original hand)

It would mean that you forgot you were playing Lebensohl.

[Stephen Tu]

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Does it just not know about 3h as an option? Why 3d instead of 3h?