[Flem72]

From time to time, someone posts an ecatsbridge link to a WBF convention card for some pair or another. Is there an index somewhere? I can parse the url to get to http://www.ecatsbridge/documents but the rest of the link -- usually in format /cc/[country]/[pair names].pdf -- is mysterious.

[paulg]

You can search for system cards by player at http://info.ecatsbri.../SearchSys.aspx.

[Flem72]

paulg, on 2012-August-14, 15:13, said:

You can search for system cards by player at http://info.ecatsbri.../SearchSys.aspx.

TY

[jillybean]

Interesting reading , so much for my resolve of staying away from systems for a period of time.

I'm a little bemused about the Psychics field, such as on Hamman/Zia's card..

PSYCHICS: 3rd seat fav can be very light ; 1NT imaginative;
SPLINTER poss with 2+ cards; leads may break agreements

I would think that unless some of this is within specified limits/alerted/announced it would make it illegal.
For instance just how light can a 3rd seat favorable opening be?

[gnasher]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 02:35, said:

Interesting reading , so much for my resolve of staying away from systems for a period of time.

I'm a little bemused about the Psychics field, such as on Hamman/Zia's card..

PSYCHICS: 3rd seat fav can be very light ; 1NT imaginative;
SPLINTER poss with 2+ cards; leads may break agreements

I would think that unless some of this is within specified limits/alerted/announced it would make it illegal.
For instance just how light can a 3rd seat favorable opening be?

See http://www.worldbrid...tems/policy.asp

If your values are "a king or more below average strength", that makes your system a HUM, which is disallowed in the Olympiad (though allowed in the Bermuda Bowl). Hence you can agree to open any eight-count.

[jillybean]

So then opening any 8 count in 3rd (or any) seat is not a psyche but opening a =<7 count (3rd seat fav can be very light) is illegal?

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 02:35, said:

I'm a little bemused about the Psychics field, such as on Hamman/Zia's card..

PSYCHICS: 3rd seat fav can be very light ; 1NT imaginative;
SPLINTER poss with 2+ cards; leads may break agreements

I would think that unless some of this is within specified limits/alerted/announced it would make it illegal.

Providing full disclosure can be difficult especially when it comes to psyches and/or deviations from published systemic agreements. If Zia is prone to opening a strong notrump in third position with a nine-count and six-card minor, then Hamman knows this and it is reasonable for the opponents to be aware of it too.

The problem is that it is almost impossible to test whether it becomes an agreement or it always remains a psyche. You just have to rely on the integrity of the players.

Personally I always liked the USBF form that asked you to detail previous situations where the partnership had psyched. Zia/Rosenberg were particularly diligent at completing this section. But of course this still relies on the players' integrity and most system cards do not have the space for this.

Finally, the need for disclosure does vary according to the competition. At the World Championships, players are expected to cope with most of this in the normal run of affairs. Less so at your average regional.

[gnasher]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 02:50, said:

So then opening any 8 count in 3rd (or any) seat is not a psyche but opening a =<7 count (3rd seat fav can be very light) is illegal?

The word "psyche" muddies the waters a bit. Even though the WBF convention card talks about psyches, what they're actually talking about is agreements to deviate from what it says elsewhere on the card.

If you know that your partner would open an 8-count in third seat, it's an agreement. It's legal to have that agreement. If you know that your partner would open an 7-count in third seat, it's still an agreement, but now it's an illegal agreement.

You're still allowed to open a 7-count in thrid seat, provided that this is as much of a surprise to your partner as it is to the opposition.

The WBF psychic bidding guidelines may help. Or they may just confuse matters further.

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 02:50, said:

So then opening any 8 count in 3rd (or any) seat is not a psyche but opening a =<7 count (3rd seat fav can be very light) is illegal?

Opening any eight count may be a psyche if your system agreement is not to open an eight count. For example, opening a strong notrump with only eight points is a psyche. However, having an agreement to play one notrump as 8-11 HCP is fine: but playing it as 7-10 HCP would make the system a HUM (and not permitted at the Olympiad, for example).

[jillybean]

This convention card is from the Bermuda Bowl which allows HUM's. If by agreement, in 3rd seat fav you open any 8 count then opening a 7,6,5,4? count is not a "A deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength or suit length.” and is therefore illegal. Andy, I don't agree that the element of surprise alone makes it legal. I also don't believe listing 3rd seat fav can be very light under psychics on the WBF card makes it legal nor can I imagine the WBF intended this.

Please note it is not my intention to bring Hamman/Zia's or anyones, ethics into question.

edit: by opening 7,6,5-counts you are in effect lowering the legal minimum for a HUM opening. It is a deviation, not a psyche.

[barmar]

Having a section of the CC where you list psyches is an oxymoron -- by definition, a psyche is a deviation from agreements, and anything on the CC is an agreement, so it can't be a psyche.

However, "we know what they mean". While they can open extremely light in 3rd/fav, it's not a normal thing to do, and they presumably don't cater their system to it (if they open 1NT, I assume partner will still force to game with a 10 count).

By disclosing the psychics, I think they're essentially saying "Here are some tendencies the opponents should be aware of, but we're going to assume don't happen."

[gnasher]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 07:41, said:

This convention card is from the Bermuda Bowl which allows HUM's.

Zia-Hamman's Bermuda Bowl card is marked as "Green", so they weren't claiming to be playing a HUM.

Quote

If by agreement, in 3rd seat fav you open any 8 count then opening a 7,6,5,4? count is not a "A deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength or suit length." and is therefore illegal. Andy, I don't agree that the element of surprise alone makes it legal.

Law 40A3 reads "A player may make any call or play without prior announcement provided that such call or play is not based on an undisclosed partnership understanding." The element of surprise is sufficient to make *any* call legal.

Quote

I also don't believe listing 3rd seat fav can be very light under psychics on the WBF card makes it legal nor can I imagine the WBF intended this.

I didn't intend to imply that it did. Writing "3rd seat fav can be very light" is simply an indication of what their agreements are. This sentence may be intended to say that they have an agreement to open 8-counts. That agreement is permitted.

It is not permitted to have an agreement to open a 7-count, regardless of what they write on the convention card.

(By "agreement", I mean the definition that appears in Law 40, ie including agreements formed through partnership experience.)

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-August-15, 09:17